#59 - Leading with Curiosity

[00:00:00] Emily:  One of my favorite quotes of all time is from a guy named Daniel Boorstin and it goes something like, the greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. And I repeat that quote all the time, because leading with curiosity is a great way to protect ourselves from the assumptions we make that might otherwise inhibit our learning.

[00:00:26] Allie: Welcome to Enrichment for the Real World, the podcast devoted to improving the quality of life of pets and their people through enrichment. We are your hosts, Allie Bender…

[00:00:43] Emily:  …and I’m Emily Strong…

[00:00:45] Allie: …and we are here to challenge and expand your view of what enrichment is, what enrichment can be and what enrichment can do for you and the animals in your lives. Let’s get started.

Thank you for joining us for today’s episode of Enrichment for the Real World, and I want to thank you for rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts.

Last week, we heard from Christina Horne, and one of the topics we discussed was systems for navigating service dog training and society. This week, we’re going to dive further into leading with curiosity and how that helps you navigate society and pet parenting and talk about implementation with the animals in your life.

In this implementation episode, Emily and I talk about… Why having a curious mindset can be difficult, the rat is never wrong, and assume best intentions.

So, obviously, we’re going to talk about how leading with curiosity applies to pet parenting and the ways that we can do that, but I’d love it if we could expand this topic out a little bit more to just how this applies to navigating society in general, because if this was the way that everyone approached things, especially conflict, the world would be a really different place.

[00:01:59] Emily:  Yeah, and to be fair, it’s not always easy to do that. I mean, it’s actually probably usually not easy to do that. But if we commit to moving towards a curiosity mindset as a way of life, we’ll get better at it the more we practice.

[00:02:15] Allie: Oh, absolutely, it’s not always easy. And I know for me, someone who is a perfectionist and is working on not always having to have the answer, it can feel really vulnerable to openly show a learning journey through asking questions and leading with curiosity.

[00:02:31] Emily:  What’s funny and also super valuable about this conversation is that the reasons it’s hard for you are completely different than why it’s hard for me. Because I have no problem asking questions, even if they seem super basic. But if I’ve had to deal with something a lot and I’m really frustrated by that topic, and then someone comes along and unintentionally pokes the bear, it’s really hard for me to shift from attack bear mode to curiosity mode.

[00:03:05] Allie: And I think that really gets to the heart of why it’s so important to lead with curiosity, because really that’s how we lead with empathy.

[00:03:12] Emily:  Empathy? Yes. And also, intellectual humility. One of my favorite quotes of all time is from a guy named Daniel Boorstin and it goes something like, the greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. And I repeat that quote all the time, because leading with curiosity is a great way to protect ourselves from the assumptions we make that might otherwise inhibit our learning.

[00:03:44] Allie: So, for today, if you don’t mind, Emily, I’d love to split our takeaways into two different categories. The first, how this applies to pet parents and how we can implement that with our own pets. And then the second, expanding that even broader into what this means for the pet professionals listening, and just generally interacting with other humans.

[00:04:04] Emily:  Yes, I consent.

[00:04:06] Allie: Excellent. Thank you. Alright. So, let’s start with that first one of how this applies to pet parents and how we can implement this with the pets in our own lives. And the first part of that is remembering that all behavior has a purpose. I think one of the first things that we need to do in order to truly be able to see behavior as it is, and to be able to lead with curiosity is forego that assumption that behavior is random, or that an animal doesn’t know what they are doing, or isn’t paying attention to what they’re doing, and realizing that even small differences in behavior, if an animal chooses to walk on the sidewalk versus the grass, that is still serving a function.

Now it may be a subconscious function that it’s serving, if we were to suddenly have this animal be able to speak human languages with us, and we ask them why they’re doing that, they may not be able to answer why they’re doing that in that moment, but it still serves a purpose. And the way that I remember that is by looking at my own behavior and how much of my own behavior is dictated by my chronic illness.

And so, the way that I sit in my chair, for example, is directly related to how my body functions. The way that I, the way that I stand, the way that I hold my hands, all of that I have learned over the years is directly related to what’s happening internally in my body. If you had asked me five years ago, I, when I was at the beginning of this journey, I wouldn’t have known that that’s why I was doing those things, but now I’m acutely aware that even those very simple, seemingly random behaviors are serving a function.

[00:06:02] Emily:  Yeah, so my, my next talking point is really just an extension of what you were just talking about. And so, I really feel like maybe yours is just part A and mine is part B. But I thought this was a really good place to, to quote Skinner when he said the rat is never wrong and what that means is not that animals never make mistakes, and they’re perfect, or that we should not train them because training is coercive, that’s not what the, that quote means. What it means is animals are doing things for a reason. And I think we’re raised kind of culturally to view those moments when animals don’t do something that we ask them to do, or something that we expect them to do, as defiance or get trying to get away with something or pushing their boundaries.

And we hear that all the time, like, don’t let them get away with that, make them do it, or they know how to do it, and they’re just ignoring me. You know, there’s all these stories, and if we shift away from that mindset that we’ve all been culturally conditioned to sort of embrace. That if they’re not doing something we ask or expect, it’s because they’re being defiant. To a curiosity mindset of why is this happening? Often, we find, I mean I don’t even want to say often, I feel like almost always we find they’re doing it for a very good reason.

Either they’re in pain, or they see something we don’t see, or there’s something that is bothering them in the environment that’s preventing them from being able to focus on us. So that’s what that means. The rat is never wrong. It just means they’re always doing something for a reason. There’s always a reason that they’re not doing what we expect or overtly saying no to us. So, we need to kind of get curious about what that is, and why they’re doing that and how we can help and support them so that they can make better choices.

[00:08:01] Allie: Yeah and doing that necessitates having really good observation skills because we need to be able to see those little changes in order to pick up on those differences and be able to realize when something may be different. And I’ll share a story about Oso in just a little bit of, of how I did this with him.

But when we’re talking about really applying this curiosity mindset to our pets, one of the things that I think is necessary that a lot of people miss is that beginning part of meeting baseline observations and baseline behaviors of what does this pet normally do? How do they normally walk? How do they normally hold themselves? How do they normally interact with people coming over? When they see other pets? Whatever it is, we need to know these baselines to know when there are changes that we need to get curious about asking. I think so often we, and this is true of myself as well, we’re just kind of a reactive species. And I don’t mean like we’re barking, and lunging, and growling at the end of our leashes, though, you know, I could argue that maybe some people do. I don’t know.

[00:09:15] Emily:  Speak for yourself, Allie. I call myself a reactive dog all the time.

[00:09:20] Allie: Yes, you are barrier reactive, that is, that is true.

[00:09:24] Emily:  Very true.

[00:09:25] Allie: I mean that we, we don’t typically work on a problem until it’s a problem. And that means that we miss all of that baseline observation where, you know, Emily, I know that you experience this as well when we’re working with clients and we say, “Well, what was your pet like before this happened?”

And they’re like, ” I don’t really know.” And that’s no judgment on them. That’s just kind of who we are as a species and, and especially we all have so much going on in our lives that it’s Really hard to be proactive in a lot of these ways. But I think remembering to get baseline observations on things before they might become a problem is something that is so, so valuable. And I find that it’s easier to have that curious mindset before it’s a full-blown problem that we need to triage immediately.

You know, I’ll use that example of Oso in just a bit, but it’s so much easier when you see little changes to ask questions about those little changes that don’t really mean anything yet before they mean a whole lot.

[00:10:35] Emily:  Yeah, I love that. And I really feel like we could say all of those same things about working with other human animals, right? So, we’ve been talking about pet parenting and working with our non-human family members, but really everything we just said applies to humans as well. And also, I think we can add a few things that we additionally need to take into consideration when we’re dealing with members of our own species, and I think the first one is assume best intentions. Which is something that’s a little bit hard, especially when we’re talking to people in writing, where we don’t have the benefit of nonverbal communication. Turns out things like facial expressions, and tone of voice, and how we carry our bodies go a long way in how we receive those messages from other people.

And so, when we don’t have those and we just have the words and writing, man, we’re really at risk of assuming the worst about somebody’s intentions. And it’s so funny that that’s, that that’s our, our tendency as a species is like, when we, when we lack information, we kind of fill in all the blanks with like the boogeyman, right?

Like it’s like a, all, we always fill in the blanks with these like really bad, negative feelings and intentions. So, it’s really important to remind ourselves that whoever we need to get curious with is probably operating under the best intentions. And I feel like I’m going to steal a quote from Susan Friedman because it has had a lasting impact on me, assume competency until proven otherwise.

And, and I have taken that to heart and also assume good intentions unless proven otherwise. So that’s, that’s where we need to start in developing that curiosity mindset when we’re talking to other people.

[00:12:26] Allie: We’ve talked so much on this podcast that for our pets, we need to be really careful about the stories that we’re telling ourselves. I, I think we do that even more so with just the other people that we encounter in our lives is, is telling stories. And when we assume best intentions, those stories drastically change and it’s, it’s a lot easier to do the next part, which is to ask questions.

And I know we’re talking about humans here, but this is true for our non-human species as well. We are always asking questions. We just get to ask more in-depth questions when we speak the same language as somebody else. You know, with our non-human species, we’re asking questions by doing things like preference tests and, and we can build agency and consent and, and they can, we can ask questions of them that way. But with humans who speak the same language as us, we get to ask more in-depth questions, and we get to really parse through all of those layers together. You know, it’s, I, I think of like Shrek with the onion and, and ogres are like onions and also humans are like onions.

And there are, I, one of the things I love and also don’t love sometimes about human behavior is there are, it’s just so complex. There’s so many different things that go into human behavior and why we do the things that we do. And it’s really interesting, and sometimes annoying, even on, like, a personal level of, like, why do I do the things that I do sometimes? I don’t know. Humans are weird, and complex, and onions and whatever. But anywho, we get to ask those really complex questions and dive deeper. And I think that’s one of… the joys of being a human with language that other humans have is that we get to go on that, like, journey together and we get to deepen connections that way.

[00:14:36] Emily:  Yes. And yeah, so here’s the other tricky thing about language is even though it lets us dive deeper, it’s also really, really complicated, and not nearly as neat and tidy and consistent as we wish it could be. And so, so often, and I know that this has definitely been true for the three of us, you, me and Ellen, so often when disagreements happen, we actually all agree, we’re just defining things differently.

And so, one of the biggest like curiosity questions that I’ve learned to ask is, what do you mean when you say blank? Like, let’s stop, before we even go through the emotional labor of having a big debate about something, which, you know, I love debating. I think it’s a sport. I think it’s fun, but like, you know, sometimes it’s not fun. Sometimes people are actually arguing, right?

But regardless, either way, before we go through all this emotional labor, let’s first make sure to define our terms so that we can make sure we’re on the same page. So yes, language is a double-edged sword because it gives us more ability to kind of get in, and kind of dig through the little details, but also it can be really confusing.

So, for sure that that aspect of, of asking questions can be really hard. Which leads me to our third point about developing a curiosity mindset with other people, which is making sure your needs are met, because the reason this is so important is because a lot of times when I fail at the curiosity mindset, and I just go into like trial lawyer mode, it’s because I’m irritable for some reason. And usually that reason has to do with unmet needs. I want to say always, but that feels a little bit of an overstatement to me. So, I’m, I’ll stay with usually. But again, I don’t know why Susan is on the brain so much in this episode, I but one of the other things that I have really taken to heart is when working with kids and kids are just having a really hard time, they’re kind of melting down in the middle of the grocery store or whatever, they’re like, all right, let’s investigate. Why you’re, you’re having these feelings that you’re struggling with, like, let’s start with hunger. Let’s, let’s get a snack and then see how you feel. You still feel in the feels cool. Are you thirsty? Let’s get some water. How do you feel now? Still feeling the feels. How about a nap? I was like, “Yo, this isn’t just for five year olds, like, legit, it’s also for 40 somethings.” Like, and so often that’s true, like, I realize I get irritable because I’ve been working for 12 hours straight, or I’m irritable because I’m hungry, or I’m irritable because I’m in pain.

So, part of that, being able to approach things with a curiosity mindset is making sure that we are coming to the conversation with our needs met so that we have the resources to do that emotional labor, and dig in, and ask the questions and have the conversations. So yeah, that’s, that’s for me, a big one. It’s not going to be true for everybody because I don’t know, Allie, actually you tell me, I started to make an assumption, but I’m going to develop a curiosity mindset and ask you when you’re having a hard time asking questions because you’re a perfectionist, and you’re nervous about you know, seeming too basic, or whatever. Do you feel that that’s exacerbated by unmet needs?

[00:18:08] Allie: Yeah, 100%. I mean, we talk about those letters of escalation and like stress stacking or trigger stacking, whatever you want to call it. And It’s so true for us, too, of it is so much easier for me to, first of all, just think of questions to ask, and then be able to exercise sometimes restraint, or patience, or like have the skills to be able to go through that Socratic method versus when my needs are not met. And it’s, it’s much harder to have restraints when my needs are not met, and I’m stressed, or I’m hungry, or I’m tired or whatever it is.

And I will say too, like, one of the things I touched on this in the very beginning, and you touched on this again in your question, of security being a need that humans have and we as humans are very social animals, whether you as an individual are a social animal or not, but as a species, we care, we tend to care a lot about what other people think about us and etc, etc.

And so, for me when I’m worried about having that curious mindset, it’s really because my security needs are not being met, and I’m not feeling safe from a psychological, or an emotional standpoint in that situation. And I think that’s a thing that we forget a lot, is that safety is so important, and that it’s not just our physical safety, it’s also our emotional and mental safety.

[00:19:49] Emily:  For sure, I, I definitely do the math in my head, like when, if I’m about to enter a conversation that could potentially require curiosity mindset and emotional labor, I’m like, okay, what’s, what is the potential for backlash here? And do I have the resources to deal with that backlash? And there are many, many times when I’m just like, nope. I just kind of nope out of the whole conversation. I’m like, I’m just not gonna. I’m not going to do this today. I’m going to go hug my dogs, or watch TV, or go on a walk instead.

[00:20:23] Allie: Yeah, it’s, it’s definitely something that requires skills, bandwidth, resources, all of the things, and, and is harder than just, you know, the, the however many minute episode that we’re putting into it here. This is a skill that you, both you and I have been learning and practicing for many, many years, and, practicing together for many, many years.

[00:20:45] Emily:  It’s true.

[00:20:47] Allie: It’s true! So, I’m going to tell y’all a story about Oso and an experience that we’ve recently had that was an example of leading with curiosity. So, I, I mean, let’s be real, I talk about Oso literally all the time all the time on this podcast as well. Like I just, he’s the four-legged love of my life. How can I not?

Anywho. So, I’ve mentioned that he is a senior, he’s 11 this year, he’s getting his little gray muzzle and eyebrows and things and, oh, he’s a little old man. I mean, he’s a very large old man, but he’s a little old man. And so, I’ve also mentioned that we have seen behavior changes as he has aged, which is very, very common as individuals age that we see behavior changes. I would venture to say that everybody has behavior changes as they age, but, you know, I, I don’t know, maybe sponges don’t, I don’t know.

One of the things that I noticed with Oso is there were some days where he would lie in a very particular way in my office. He has several safe spaces throughout my house, and underneath my desk is one of those spaces, which I don’t love that space, but that’s his mom is in the office and there’s a thunderstorm safe place, and like, cool, that’s fine.

That doesn’t happen frequently enough for me to be that upset about it. But, I have, behind my, my office chair, I have a nice plush comfy chair with an ottoman and there’s this like little cranny between the ottoman and the wall and he started lying in this little cranny and I was like, ” That’s an interesting behavior.”

And now because I’ve had him for years and because I have a very solid understanding of his baseline behaviors and when he usually does certain things, I know that when he’s uncomfortable, he typically chooses confinement for his safe space, hence why he goes under my desk for thunderstorms. So, I was like, that’s a weird thing that I don’t usually see. Normally he just lies behind my office chair. He doesn’t usually put himself into this weird little cranny that I have to actually move the ottoman so that he can get out from that space. Like, he doesn’t actually fit there. I observed that a few times. I was like, “Hmm, I wonder what’s up with that?”

And so, I was more observant on the days that he was doing that behavior of like, is there something else that maybe I am missing? Is there a gait change? Like I said, he’s 11, we have already been noticing gait changes and pain related changes and things like that and have already been working on that. We talked quite a bit about that in Katie Sulzmann’s episode because she’s his massage therapist and we’re doing that to keep his mobility up to snuff.

And so, I got curious. I got more observant on those days. More than I just typically am with him. And I noticed that sometimes there was a rhyme or reason and sometimes there wasn’t a rhyme or reason. And the thread that I noticed was that on windy days I would see that behavior. I knew that he has started to get more uncomfortable with windy days as he’s gotten older. Not uncommon to have weather related behavior changes as dogs age. And so, I talked to my fabulous vet about this, and we essentially agreed to do a pain versus anxiety medication trial. Of why is this happening? And like I said, it is… it’s a very subtle behavior. It is that he is choosing to lie in a different place in my office, and now as we’ve gone through this trial, it is not only lying in that particular place, it’s lying with his head facing the wall in this place, versus sometimes he’ll be in that cranny, but with his head facing out, and that he’s comfortable there, and I don’t know what it means, maybe it just means he doesn’t want to be run over by my desk chair. I don’t know.

 On these days, I would say like, okay, what’s happening in the environment? It’s windy. Let’s try anxiety meds. That worked? Awesome! And I knew that worked by he would leave the cranny and go back to the couch, which is where he usually is hanging out while I’m working throughout the day. On days that it wasn’t windy, I was like, okay, anxiety meds really aren’t doing anything on those days.

Okay, so windy days, anxiety, not windy days, pain. And I was able to trial that with medication to get my answers and see the effects of those medications so that I know that I see this one very subtle behavior, and that means he’s uncomfortable, and then I can go through, and figure out why it is that he’s uncomfortable to, to help him have a better day that day.

[00:25:45] Emily:  I love that story so much, even though it’s about Oso aging because Oso, like Bree, should live forever. And I object to his, the gall of how dare he age. It’s

[00:25:59] Allie: The audacity of it. I tell him this. I tell him this.

[00:26:03] Emily:  how dare

[00:26:04] Allie: How dare he age?

[00:26:06] Emily:  There, that’s leading with curiosity. It’s a question. How dare you?

[00:26:09] Allie: Maybe a more aggressive question than we would recommend for this particular skill. I

[00:26:18] Emily:  it. I’m keeping it.

[00:26:19] Allie: I’ll allow it.

[00:26:20] Emily:  Thanks. So, for my proof story, I’m going to talk about human interactions. And mine was about some clients that I worked with, lovely clients. And one of the things that we were working on was teaching their dog to move away from stressors when it was too overwhelming. And so, the, for many reasons, both people in the, in the couple wanted to walk the dog. They had a routine. It worked for them. They had very good reasons for wanting to, to split dog walking duties. So, both of them needed to have the skill and we were working on this flight cue for when, you know, stressors were too high. And we had a hard time finding a cue that would work for the wife for a lot of different reasons I won’t get into.

And we finally found a cue that worked for her, and it was, she was doing great making progress. The dog was getting it. The dog just was not getting it with the husband. And we were trying to figure it out, and trying to troubleshoot, and I could see that they were starting to get a little snippy with each other about it.

And in sessions, the client, the husband would kind of shut down and I was like, “Okay. What’s going on here?” There’s, there’s something that I’m not seeing conversations that are happening when I’m not around about this cue, and there’s a reason that the husband is kind of shutting down and withdrawing more.

And so, we were talking about this, this behavior, you know, “How’s it going?” And I usually ask the wife first, but this time I asked the husband first, and the husband was like, “Maybe I’m just not good at training. I don’t know. It’s been really hard.” And he was, he was clearly having a hard time with this.

And I was like, “Okay, well tell me more. Why do you think that? Like, why do you feel that way?”

And so, he was talking about, you know, the issues that he was having and the issues that he was having were very much, sounded to me, like training mechanics issues. Like there was something about the cue that wasn’t working for this dog. And so, I was like, okay, so are you, are you let’s, let’s break this down piece by piece and talk about these different aspects of the, the, you know, training mechanics and see if we can identify where the behavior is breaking down.

What was weird about it was that when we were in the sessions, the dog would respond beautifully to the husband. So, it, that was what I was trying to figure out is why can the dog do it beautifully when I’m here looking at it, and not when I’m not here. So, we were, we were talking through, and I asked him, like, “How is, how does he respond to the cue?” That’s the first thing. Let’s find out if it’s an issue with the cue.

And he was like, “No, the cue’s fine, the cue’s fine.” And he, he responds fine, you know, and he kind of like blew it off and I was like, I still think there’s something going on here, but I’m not going to push it, like, he’s clearly uncomfortable. I’m not gonna, you know, push the issue with him.

So, we went through systematically with the rest of the mechanics and everything, and talked through some things. I, I was like, maybe this is the issue, so I suggested him trying a couple different things. I was like, report back to me, and then I asked the wife, we talked through, finished the session.

It was all fine. So, later I get an email from the wife and she was like, I’m very upset because my husband won’t tell you that he’s not actually using the cue that you’ve given us, and we’ve been fighting about it, and that’s why he was being so, I can’t remember what word she used, but essentially, she was saying that’s why he was being kind of grumpy at the session. And I just don’t know what to do because he just refuses to use the cue.

And I was like, “Okay, well, you know, first of all, I didn’t take any of that personally. It didn’t feel like he was being grumpy at me, I could tell that he was uncomfortable about something, but I’m not going to force somebody to share something with me that they’re not comfortable with. So, like, thank you for letting me know. Talk to me more about why, what are these arguments about? Like, why is he not using the cue, or why is he only using the cue when I’m around and not when I’m not around? Is it about me? Like, does he feel uncomfortable with me? Is there something that I can do to help with that relationship?”

And she said, “No, it has to do with me. We’re fighting because he wants it to be a different cue, and I don’t. And it’s, we’re just kind of butting heads about this.”

And I said, “Well, have you asked him why he doesn’t want to use your cue? Like have you talked to him about what different alternatives for him? Like what’s, what’s going on here?”

And she kind of shared some, some of the conversations that they’d had, and no questions were actually asked during these conversations. They were kind of talking past each other. And I said, “Okay, what I’d like you to do is ask him with genuine curiosity, not in a scolding tone of voice, but with genuine curiosity, ask him why the cue, this cue doesn’t work for him, and what is it about the cue that he wants to use that’s more appealing to him?”

And she was like, “Oh, I haven’t, I didn’t think to ask that. I will do that.” So, she talked to her husband again, and she asked him those exact questions. And it turned out that he was embarrassed to use a really kind of squeaky high pitched cue when he was out in public because they had a lot of neighbors that were out in their yards, very active, and he just didn’t want his neighbors seeing him making this really high pitched kind of squeaky noise.

And I was like, “Well, that’s the problem?” I was like, “That’s really easy to fix. Like, you can have your own cue. You don’t both have to have the same cue. Let’s just make sure that the cue that you like is something that your dog is going to respond to in the same way or a similar way as the cue that the wife likes, and, and then let’s just teach the behavior with that cue or do a cue transfer. There’s just so many different ways that we can get to the point where each of you can use your own cue.”

So, we, at our next session, we tested out some different cues. The original one that he wanted to use was not effective for the dog, which was the problem, which was why, why it was the behavior was breaking down when I wasn’t around. But once I learned what his criteria were for being comfortable with the cue, I was able to suggest an alternative for him that both was effective for the dog and made him feel more comfortable being able to use it.

And then we just, we essentially just reviewed the behavior. We just proofed the behavior with a new cue. And right away, within that one session, the dog understood the concept and he was able to start having success again with that behavior when I wasn’t there. But it was so cute because they both were trying really hard to be good clients and good, you know, pet parents and, and they were, they were really dedicated to the training. The only thing that was missing was that element of curiosity and asking him, why do you object so strongly to this cue and what is it that you would prefer instead? And once we asked those questions, we were able to clear it all up and it was just no big deal.

[00:33:34] Allie: I love that. Humans are just so cute sometimes.

[00:33:38] Emily:  They really are. Humans are the cutest. I say they. We. We are the cutest.

[00:33:43] Allie: So, today we talked about leading with curiosity and both on the pet parent and then just the, the like, humaning side. On the pet parent side, remembering that all behavior has a purpose and that the rat is never wrong. There is always a function behind that behavior. Sometimes the individual may not know that there’s a function behind that behavior, but there is always a function behind that behavior.

And really building your, your observation skills, focusing on getting a baseline observation of your animals so that you can much more easily see when there are changes and ask questions for those smaller changes when it’s going to be easier versus when those changes become a full-blown problem. On the human side of things, assume best intentions, unless otherwise proven, and ask questions. And sometimes the questions that we need to ask are, are just like the very basics of what do you mean when you say this word? There are so many miscommunications that could be cleared up by just getting a handle on what we’re defining different terms as, and making sure that our own needs are being met when we’re entering into situations in which we do need to lead with curiosity, because it is sometimes a difficult skill to practice.

Next week, we’ll be talking with Kalyn Holl about sled dogs and reindeer.

Thank you for listening. You can find us at petharmonytraining.com and @petharmonytraining on Facebook and Instagram, and also @petharmonypro on Instagram for those of you who are behavioral professionals. As always links to everything we discussed in this episode are in the show notes and a reminder to please rate, review and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts a special thank you to Ellen Yoakum for editing this episode, our intro music is from Penguin Music on Pixabay.

Thank you for listening and happy training.

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