[00:00:00] Ryan: I like being flawed human, what I mean is that those  that flawedness, albeit extremely uncomfortable and unpleasant to  sometimes have to navigate. That the growth mindset allows you to  reframe that, to first feel that and go, this is a hard situation. If someone  else was in my situation right now, they would find it hard. It is okay to  feel not nice right now. This is hard. But then to go, what, what can I  learn from the situation? That is, that is what I mean. Like that learning  part that often might come after it might come significantly after, but that  growth and that curiosity about what you can learn and what you can  take away and how you might do things differently, that that is what I  mean when I say I like being a flawed human.  

[00:00:51] Allie: Welcome to Enrichment for the Real World, the podcast  devoted to improving the quality of life of pets and their people through  enrichment. We are your hosts, Allie Bender… 

[00:01:08] Emily: …and I’m Emily Strong… 

[00:01:09] Allie: …and we are here to challenge and expand your view  of what enrichment is, what enrichment can be and what enrichment can  do for you and the animals in your lives. Let’s get started. 

Thank you for joining us for today’s episode of Enrichment for the Real  World, and I want to thank you for rating, reviewing, and subscribing  wherever you listen to podcasts.  

The voice you heard at the beginning of today’s episode was Ryan  Cartlidge. Ryan Cartlidge is a Certified Professional Dog Trainer through  the Karen Pryor Academy, with a passion for training methods that  prioritize the most positive and least intrusive options for the learners he  works with. He has been working internationally since 2007 as a  professional trainer across Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and the U.  S. And in 2015, Ryan founded the Animal Training Academy, otherwise  known as ATA, which has allowed him to further extend his global  impact. He now works with both teams and individual trainers around the  world, supporting those who work with both domestic pets and exotic  animals. His goal is to help all trainers enhance their skills and make  their biggest possible positive impact in the work they do. 

We’ve had the opportunity to work with Ryan a few times through ATA,  and he is just one of the kindest humans that I have ever met. His  energy is contagious and infectious in the absolute best way possible, 

and I am so thrilled that he agreed to be on our podcast. In this episode,  you’re going to hear Emily and Ryan talk about, you are not alone,  community is critical, Crucial Conversations is universally applicable,  and how Ryan made eggs for buzzards. Alright, here it is, today’s  episode, Ryan Cartlidge, building community through crucial  conversations.  

[00:03:02] Emily: Okay. Tell us your name, your pronouns, and your  pets. 

[00:03:05] Ryan: Hi everyone, my name is Ryan Cartlidge, him slash  his, and I live with five mini earthlings at the moment. We have Phoebe  Dog, who is cross Chihuahua and Silky Terrier. We have two cats,  domestic short haired cats. We have a four year old human learner.  She’s an amazing learner. And we have a nine month old human learner  who’s just started crawling, and is teaching us loads about learning from  scratch, literally. 

[00:03:40] Emily: Yeah, yeah. I love that. I, I have to sidebar because I  wanted to look up the meaning of the word pet, because so many people  don’t like calling their, their companion animals pets. And I found out that  it actually generated from, I think the 19th century, and it didn’t at first  refer to non humans. It was a term of endearment for humans, like my  pet, like, if you think about it, like, it makes sense. Like, oh, my pet. And  then it just started being applied to non humans and now it’s like the  semantic drift has made it almost entirely referred to non humans. And  that delighted me and it made me feel a lot better about calling them  pets because I now think it’s super appropriate to, to just refer to all your  little loved ones as pets. So I enjoy that when I asked you about your  pets, you included your two human little poppets. 

[00:04:31] Ryan: I mean, we’ve got more than five learners in our house  because obviously I live there and my wife lives there. But many, many  learners, they keep us on our toes, and we’re consistently leveraging our  knowledge of behavior to help them succeed and to guide them. 

[00:04:49] Emily: I love that. All right. Well tell us your story and how  you got to where you are. 

[00:04:53] Ryan: Well, I am from New Zealand. I have been working  with animals circa since 2007. Uh, I, and I’m going to talk about a  specific learner I worked with later. But I want to share a little bit of that 

story now because when thinking about your question, I think that that  learner way back in around 2008, 2009, 2010, taught me more back  then, you know from a single learner then potentially any learner. Apart  from my kids, probably. That I’ve met since then and definitely had the  most profound impact on me. I think when I’m You know at my end My  final days and thinking back on my life, there’s this bird I’ve referred to  him as Bob in some of my content, but his real name was Reg. I, when I  first started, I was like, he was still at the zoo, and I was like, do I, I didn’t  know the etiquette around anything, so I just made up that his name was  Bob. But his real name’s Reg, so if I switch between those two, I  apologize.  

But this bird was demonstrating aggressive behaviours towards me, and,  and I had no idea, about anything to do with training. I got a job in a  department of a zoo where my job was pretty much training all day. We,  we had birds, we were free flying birds for the visitors to the park. And,  and the purpose of that was to wow them, obviously, to give the, the  visitors a great experience, but also that opportunity then becomes more  available to you as a zoo staff member to impart valuable information.  So we really wanted to talk about the birds, and the plight of their  species in the wild, and what differences the zoo visitors could make in  terms of their own behavior.  

For example, we had a magpie, an Australian magpie. From the Corvid  family, incredibly smart animals, so much fun to work with. One of my  favorite species, just doing a very simple behavior of picking up rubbish  and putting it in the bin. So, we could have a lot of fun, and, and talk  about recycling and those really simple things that we can all do and  kids can enjoy and learn about.  

But this bird was Reg, the Reg, the Wedge Tailed Eagle. Everyone  knows what an eagle is. For those not from Australia, you might not  know what a Wedge Tailed eagle is. It is one of the larger eagle species.  Big wedge tail, as the name suggests. Huge talons. They’ve got massive  beaks, but their talons are, the pointy ends are dangerous, ends are  extremely powerful, they can crush bones. So, you’re not, you’re, you’re  dealing with a animal that has the potential to inflict serious injury, if it’s  so desired. And it’s so desired to me, I could work with this individual in a  setting where we had him out freely.  

So when you think, if you don’t know about the flying of birds in  zoological context, and when we use the term free flight, what we mean 

is, the birds are free. They can fly away whenever they want. They are  free to leave, there’s no leashes, or ropes, or confinement in any way.  They come out, and we work with them, and then they go home again.  

And I could work in that context. I had things that the individual desired,  big chunks of meat.  

This Reg knew the routines in this environment really well. He knew the  behaviours, he’d been doing them for years. He came out, saw me, did  the things, got the meat, went home. But if I went into his enclosure it  was a different story. And those talons were aimed at my face, and so I  didn’t know anything, and I was asking those in the facility, in the  organization, hey, can you help me? 

And the people there had learned from their on the job experience. And  so, they were giving me what they had learned. And with birds of prey,  there’s a long history of falconry. So, that means using birds of prey to  hunt, taking them actually out and hunting rabbits and hunting other prey  items. It’s still a large part of cultures around the world. 

In the Middle East, I’ve been to Abu Dhabi a couple of years ago, and  there’s falconry stuff everywhere, in a huge falconry center. So you walk  through the, they don’t really have a subway, but there was some kind of  transport tunnel and it was all mosaics of falconry stuff, which is cool for  a bird nerd like myself. 

But these, this thing, falconry and the practices that are involved in it,  involve some techniques which flood the animals. So, what I mean when  I say that is they put the animals in situations that they can’t escape  from, and they teach them that their behavior and, and, that term  falconry, it means so many different things to so many different people. 

So, I’m just sharing a version of it, but you might not use or, practice the  things that I’m talking about and use the same word. So, I don’t want to,  poopoo that word or poopoo anything about that, but there are some  practices involved in falconry where learners are put in situations where  they, their behavior doesn’t influence their environment, they don’t have  control. 

And so, this is the situation I found myself in with Reg trying to deal with  this aggressive behavior. We were putting him in situations, and I didn’t  know anything. Where we took away his control. 

So what that looked like was, birds of prey can have anklets on their  legs. And what an anklet is, is it’s a piece of leather. It wraps around  their, their ankle area. Well, it’s actually a bit different on the bird, but  

let’s just call it an ankle for the sake of everyone understanding, where  this might be located on the bird. What you might think of as the ankle of  the bird, where it’s foot ends and there’s a piece of leather that wraps  around there and it has a little bit that pokes out at the back. 

In that little bit there’s a thing called an eyelet which is a hole. And  basically through this hole you can thread a piece of rope called a jess.  So you thread a piece of rope through this hole, and you can hold on to  these jesses, hold on to these ropes, and therefore you’ve got, the bird  can’t get away from you. 

Now, that jesses, and anklets, and all of this equipment is super  important if you’re working with birds of prey. They are used as safety  tools, so if you have to take a bird through an area, and something  spooks it, it keeps the bird safe, you safe, and people that it might be in  that vicinity, and other animals that might be in that vicinity safe. 

Some people use them as training tools. So, this was the case with Reg  at the time, where his jesses were tied to a stump, and I was told to  approach him and, and do things with him, when he couldn’t get me, he  couldn’t attack me and he had no choice to move away from me. What I  could clearly see though was that it wasn’t working. 

The, the behavior in the enclosure wasn’t changing. The context was  completely different than when he was tied to a perch. And so, I went  traveling, and I visited other zoos and, and one, there’s moments in your  journeys as animal trainers that probably stick out to you, and then you  realize how pivotal they were, and, I went to Taronga Zoo in Sydney,  and I met a man called Nick Bishop, who, with his team, started to talk to  me about positive reinforcement. 

And about how I could teach this learner through successive  approximations to get from where we were to where we wanted to be.  And this all started to make a lot of sense to me, and this Nick was really  kind and generous with his time, he’d ring me up and he’d talk me  through things. And I was always of the, motivation that I was like, how  did, how did Nick get this knowledge? What did Nick do? What did Nick  read? Where did Nick go? Who does Nick know? Who should I know  that Nick knows that I don’t know? 

And I remember thinking with Reg, I was like, I have no idea what to do  here. No idea. But I really want to work with this bird, and someone  somewhere in the world knows how to do it. And I just, I have to meet  the best person to, to tell me how to do that. If they were here, they  could do it. I just have to meet them, and ask them how to do it. And so  Nick told me, he’s like, you’ve got to meet this guy called Steve Martin.  Steve Martin, for those that don’t know, is a bird trainer, and an exotic  animal trainer, and trainer of all species, but does a lot of stuff with birds,  lives in Florida. Has this big company called Natural Encounters, which  I’ve been lucky enough to do some interning with over the years. 

I know a lot of their staff. It’s an amazing organization, they’re amazing  people and I have a lot of amazing things to say about them and I can’t  go on for long enough about how much I appreciate what they’ve done  for me and what they do for many learners around the world. But, Nick  said, Steve’s coming Ken’s Tropical Zoo. 

It’s fantastic. It’s It’s I was like, oh cool, like I’m gonna meet Steve. Next  thing, I’m gonna meet Steve. So I brought tickets to the conference he  was at and I, I flew there and Steve was there and then I just, I was like,  where did Steve learn all of this stuff from? Like, how does Steve know  this? Like, what did Steve do? Who did Steve learn from? Where did  Steve travel to? So, thinking back then, I always feel like I was probably  pretty annoying, but I was just hanging around him, like asking  questions, asking questions, and I finally got to like, who’s your biggest  influence now, who’d you learn the most out from? 

And he said, Dr. Susan Friedman. And I went, who’s Dr. Susan  Friedman? And he pointed across the room and he said, her. And I  went, and I obviously not looked at the schedule at all, or what was  happening at this conference. I’d just gone there to meet Steve. And I  was like, oh, amazing. And so, I creepily went down to the buffet  breakfast the next morning at the place the conference was and stood in  the shadows and waited for Susan to come in, with her family. She was  there with her partner and her two daughters, and sat down and I, then I  came out of the shadows and went, oh, is this seat free? And I, and I sat  down and started to talk to Susan and which was the beginning of a  beautiful friendship and mentorship. 

And then Susan, I said to Susan, who, who, you know, you know, when  did Susan learn this? Like, how did Susan become Susan? And I asked  her who her biggest influence was and she said, BF Skinner. And I went, 

well, he’s dead. So, I want to learn everything from you, and she  remembers that. She told me the other day, she remembers that I told,  pretty much told her, like, I want to learn everything I can from you. 

And then, In her presentation, she taught us about FAIDs, which, if you  don’t know what that means, it stands for Functional Assessment and  Intervention Design. It’s about looking at an individual problem, or  behaviour, or challenge you’re facing with an individual learner and  working through a series of questions to come up with an intervention,  designing an intervention. 

And so, I sat there and I brainstormed, and went through these  questions with a black breasted buzzard we had at the time. If you don’t  know what a black breasted buzzard is, which I’m assuming is 99  percent of people out there, it’s, apart from the Australians, is it’s a bird  of prey that lives in the outback in Australia, and that they’re known  because they’re one of only two species in the world who have this  innate behavior of picking up rocks, and throwing them at eggs to smash  them. So they will smash emu eggs. And the other species being the  Egyptian vulture, who does it with ostrich eggs. And, anyway, we had  this black breasted buzzard called Kingy. And Kingy would fly down to  the ground and, and bite my shoes, and grab my shoes, and just get in  the way of everything that we try to do in his holding space in terms of  cleaning his water, and picking up his poo, and uneaten food. 

And I came up with station training right there with Susan in this  conference setting, which was brand new to me. I’d never thought about  station training in my life. Went back, station trained Kingy, and problem  solved. And I went, well, that worked.  

But I share this story because I don’t think that, that version of me, well I  know that that version of me, which is, I don’t know what to do here, but  someone does I’m going to find that person and I’m going to ask them.  Has never left me and it’s, and it’s, it gave me the, and then we, I trained  Reg and Reg was a big puppy dog at the end of the day. I’ve got video  of him on his perch, and you’d walk up to Reg, and you’d stick your  hands under his wings, his giant wings, two meter long wingspan, once  they were all stretched out, and give him some big scratches and he’ll  push his head into you, and he’ll roll his talons up and he’ll just lean into  you so much so that if you, if you step back, he would fall off the perch.  He was, that they are really affectionate in terms of defining affection as 

what I just, described, birds. I don’t think I’ve worked with many birds of  prey, if any, that I’ve had that kind of relationship with. 

I went back years later, Reg came straight down to me and the keepers  were like, whoa, like he just smashes, he flies that really hard to mesh if  he doesn’t know strangers. We don’t let strangers go up there. But we  formed an amazing relationship, but the I share that story because I  Know that the listeners of this show, and hello listeners of this show,  hello ATA members, Pet Harmony people I know that there’s so much  crossover here. Me and Emily were talking about that. But, I know that  so many people are in that position, right? Like, they don’t know what to  do, they might be isolated in their, geographical location without that  support network. 

Those who they’re reaching out to, might not necessarily have the, the  helpful information. The, the, suggesting the tools that are actually going  to aid them, and so I’ve taken that situation of Reg and we’ve built  Animal Training Academy now. I spent years working in zoos and I  started to work with domestic species, got my Karen Pryor dog training  certification, fear free certification, all of these bits and pieces that your  listeners will be familiar with. 

But now we, we provide a platform through Animal Training Academy,  which I’ve been doing for eight years, I think, nine years, maybe, where  we help people in that position. Like God, I wish I had Animal Training  Academy or Pet Harmony back then. But that, that, that is, that is, what  we aim to do is we aim to make those people who are stuck get  connected with, Susan Friedman or whoever it is in our, on our planet  that has the knowledge and information. 

And we’ve been doing that, and building this community of global  behaviour nerds, for eight years and it’s, it’s pretty special. And that’s  what I, that’s where my journey has taken me. But I feel like I’m the  same person that was standing there scratching my head of Reg not  knowing where I was, or why, I knew where I was. That’s a silly thing to  say. Not knowing what I was going to do or how I was going to do it, but  knowing that I could and knowing that someone could and figuring it out.  

[00:19:37] Emily: Yeah. I mean, I, 

think saying not knowing where I was is apropos because, We’re talking  about metaphorically, like, I don’t know where I am in this journey. I don’t 

know where to start. Where am I going with this? I don’t even know. So I  don’t think that was a mistake. I think that was a very honest thing to  say. But I love your journey and there are so many threads that I want to  pull out of it. One is that I, I find it delightful that you and I were going  through the same journey at the same time, like years before we knew  each other. And that, so what I call our mutual approach to learning is  stray kittening. Where I just like find somebody who has like something  to teach me, and I just sort of like follow them home, like a stray kitten.  And I just keep meowing at them. Like, I know I’m probably annoying,  but I’m just going to keep asking you questions because I want to learn  what you know.  

So I love that you’re a fellow stray kitten who just stray kittens people  home. Um, you’re welcome to take it. Yeah. But I think there’s something  really valuable to that kind of learning because it’s a, it’s a fearless kind  of learning and it’s a trusting kind of learning. And I think those are both  beautiful things to be fearless and trusting in your learning journey, gives  you access to resources that you might not otherwise have, get access  to. And it connects you to people that, can give you a lot of, of value.  And, it hasn’t always worked out for me, not everybody that a stray kitten  home wanted to be stray kittened. And and that’s okay, right? They didn’t  ask for a kitten and so I have to respect those boundaries. But that’s part  of the fearlessness of it is, is knowing that sometimes you’re going to be  rejected and. And just being okay with that, I think is, is really, is a really  good practice. So I loved to hear that. And it was right around the same  time that I was doing the same thing. And also telling Susan, I want to  learn everything from you. I’m going to just follow you around for the rest  of your life. Yeah, so, so I think that’s delightful. 

Another thing that I wanted to pull out of that is that continuous growth  mindset that no matter how long you’ve been doing this or how much  you have learned, you still have that mindset of like, I have so much to  learn and I’m going to just keep, I’m going to keep learning. And that,  that is beautiful too. And yeah, I think that’s a really big deal when we get  to the point where we feel like we don’t have anything else to learn or, or  Have learned at all. That’s to me a sign that we should maybe quit and  go do something else. So I, I love to hear that growth mindset. 

[00:22:04] Ryan: Yeah, and what’s really, thank you for saying those,  those kind of things. I love the growth mindset and, and we’ve done  some podcasts, you could say something growth mindset and we’ve  read the growth mindset, but by the particular book I’m talking about by 

Carol Dweck, if those listening don’t know what we’re talking about when  we say the growth mindset. 

And it’s been such a popular piece of content and focus for our members  that I know it’s changed, literally changed, those who have really dived  into it. Not everyone, but a significant amount of people in our  membership has changed their lives. And I don’t say that lightly, but to  get the information and the knowledge and the insights from that book,  and think about your own journey and your own learning and those  around you. 

It’s pretty profound. The other thing I just want to highlight from what you  just said, Emily, is that we were there together, at the same time. When I  say there, we didn’t know where we were, but we were both on planet  Earth, like not in the same location, but treading the same path and, and,  and going down the same journey. 

At the time, I, I working in zoos always felt lonely in a way, because I’d  done LLA, and I could, and I could see the use of labels, and I could  understand how that was really inhibiting progress with our programs.  And I also did not have the skills to communicate or be an effective  influencer in those spaces. 

And so it’s, it’s, interesting for me now to think about is as you share that  you’re somewhere else in the world on that same journey, like how  lonely? And I wasn’t sitting there going, oh, my god, I’m so lonely. But  like it was lonely. It was like And, and for those who are listening who  are maybe in a shelter environment, or maybe you’re in a zoo  environment, and you’re surrounded by, a organization, or group of  people who are disempowering in that way. 

And, and, and also it’s hard to like, it’s so hard to be in that space, and  really influence culture and growth and practices and all of that stuff in  an organization. But it can be so lonely, and it’s so interesting to think  that we were on that same journey. And I, and I just want to share with  

the podcast listeners that you might be on that journey, and that’s why I  love what Animal Training Academy, and Pet Harmony, and all of our  communities that we’ve created is that you don’t have to be alone  anymore.  

But, Emily, we did a survey last year and it was surprising to me that  people specifically identified this. They’re, maybe not in an organization 

but they’re in a geographical location where there aren’t other positive  reinforcement trainers around, and they’re lonely. They feel isolated. And  so it’s, it’s interesting to think that we were doing that then, and it’s just, I  just want to say to everyone that if you have been in that position or  you’re in that position now, that we don’t need to be anymore, like, we,  like, we have Animal Training Academy, we have Pet Harmony, we have  all of these amazing organizations, and there are people on this planet  right now going through what you’ve been through, and there are people  that have been through that, and I, and I just love, I love that. I love, I’ve  realized how important community is. I think I realize more and more.  But specifically over the last year or so, I’ve just really come to  understand how incredibly important community is. 

[00:25:20] Emily: Yes. I cannot agree with you enough about that  because it has been the recurring feedback that we’ve gotten in PETPro  is the, the, feeling of isolation that people had before they were in  PETPro and then after joining it, the feeling that they, they have a  community of people who understand them and truly, sincerely support  them are in their corner. And it’s a safe place to be vulnerable and to, to  really just ask the hard questions and, and bring their cases and, and  admit the, the, the fear, and the insecurity, and all the things that we all  feel, but nobody thinks that anybody else feels, and so you have to put  on a front, like you’re confident, you know, all the stuff, right. 

And, and what’s interesting is that, as I’ve been learning more about  different social justice issues, and really delving into, the, the work of  social justice, what, what I’m learning from the, my teachers and my  

mentors in anti racism is best way to be anti racist is to, involve yourself  in the community, to be a part of the community. The best way to  participate in disability justice is to form a community, and be in  community with others. And that’s just the repeating theme of like,  wherever we are in life, community is so important. And I think that we  just see that we just see that over and over again, that, isolation is so  harmful and, and community is really the thing that saves us.  

That was a direct quote from Kassidi Jones, we just had her on the  podcast not too long ago and she said, community will be the thing that  saves us. And I was like, damn. Yeah, yes, that is so true. So yeah, I, I  really resonate with all of that.  

There’s one additional thread I want to pull out of what you said, and that  is your search for the provenance of the knowledge that, that you found 

in people of like, okay, well, where did he learn this? Okay. Well, where  did he learn this? Well, where did she learn this? And that is such an  important skill that I think maybe if you don’t even realize that that’s a  skill that you have. I need to just tell you that’s a skill that you have  because, one of the things that we really focus on in PETPro is  epistemology. 

I’ve, I’ve spoken about it on our podcast multiple times. But for those of  you who have not heard me speak about it before, epistemology is,  assessing the quality of the knowledge and the information that we  receive. So asking ourselves, how do we know that what we believe is  true? And as people are learning about epistemology in our community,  a question that I get a lot is like, how do it’s so hard, and pseudoscience  can seem so convincing, and like, there are so many things where it’s a  gray area of maybe not totally pseudoscience, but like some  inaccuracies within, an actual scientific process. And when we’re looking  at research design and how we can assess, the, the integrity of a  research study, they’re like, Oh, there’s so much to know. Like, I don’t, I  don’t, I can’t learn all this. And I see people starting to panic when  they’re like diving off the Dunning Kruger cliff and realizing how much  there is to know.  

And, and my answer to them is exactly what you already do, Ryan,  which is, you don’t have to be an expert in all of that. You don’t have to  become a subject matter in everything, all you need to ask is, that’s  interesting, where did you learn that? And you just follow the trail, you  follow the provenance of that information until you find its source. And,  and the sources are going to have integrity, the sources are going to be  robust, and there’s going to be community consensus, and there’s going  to be data behind the, the really solid information, right? And so I just  loved hearing you tell your story about like, okay, well, where did you  learn this? All right. Well, where did you learn this? Because that’s  exactly what people should be doing to, to assess the quality and the  integrity of the information they’re receiving. It’s just beautiful, beautiful  work. I appreciate you and the many skills and, and, talents and  compassion that you bring to our profession. 

[00:29:20] Ryan: Thank you. I appreciate your kindness and in those  words then they mean a lot to me and it reminds me of something that  Rick Heister and Susan said recently when we hosted them at ATA for a  live podcast which we did last month, which you’ve never done. We recorded live within our membership on on LIMA, And we went back to 

as far as we could with guidance from Susan and Rick to where that  acronym came from, and where or what its meaning was from the  original source that we could find. And where that came from. 

But they, they coined, I think what you said, as Susan so often does,  right? She takes this big idea and he breaks it down into like a couple of  words like Behavior doesn’t happen in a vacuum, for example. But a new  one that I’ve just heard them saying recently and one that our members  mentioned afterwards really resonated with them as well was move  slow, think hard. And that’s has been in my mind ever since and I think it,  what you’re saying reminds me of that say. So potentially a new  Susanism that, and, and Rick-anism, I have to say now.  

[00:30:37] Emily: I used to joke that if I like tattooed every one liner that  I got from Susan on my body, I would just be like head to toe tattoos  because she is so good about, like you said, taking big concepts and  distilling them down into these simple, pithy, easy to remember phrases  and saying. I love that one. Move slow, think hard. Beautiful. I love that. 

[00:31:00] Ryan: There was one other thing that, and it’s going off on a  bit of a side tangent, but I think it was an important part of my journey  and, and related to what you were saying about the beauty of trying to  ask people where they learned, what they learned, how they know, what  they know. Another valuable use of that for my time with Reg was I had  to then go back to this organization with no knowledge, or experience  and say, hey, I want to do these things. Yeah, people were open to it.  But there was challenges as there are in team environments when  people have different ideas, and people lack communication skills, which  was definitely me at the time. But I remember, think, I remember thinking  as I walked to or rode my bike to that park every day. With, with every  team member there, and with myself and them and their relationship  with me, if we knew everything about that person and where they had  come from, what their experiences had been in life when they were  young, as a teenager, in adulthood, what books they had read, what  movies they had seen, where they had traveled to, what trauma they  had been through, what joys they had experienced, we would  understand them. 

Their behavior would make sense to us. And I just remember vividly just  thinking that every morning, and I think that helped me be curious, and I  was excited when I saw a podcast episode from you and your team  about specifically that. Getting curious. So I think it applies, it applies for 

your search of knowledge, but it just applies in general. In our  interactions with our non human learners, but really importantly with all  human learners, not only those we want to seek knowledge from. 

[00:32:47] Emily: Yes, absolutely. And I will say that, first, first of all,  thank you. I’m touched that the, that, that get curious podcast was  resonating with you. But also I have learned from, from that experience  of, of learning how to get curious and learning how to think of behavior in  context. Not just the immediate context, but the big, big picture that I can  tell when I am getting And I don’t just mean like physically tired, but  when I have used too many of my spoons, when I’m emotionally tired,  when I’m cognitively tired, when in my mind, I know that that is how I  should be responding to some of these behavior, but emotionally, And  physically, it’s really hard to, and I just want to like react and lash out  when I no longer have the patience to be curious and to think of their  behavior, in this sort of like objective, compassionate problem solving  way, but I just want to lash out. That’s a sign to me that I need rest, that I  need to spend some time recuperate and doing some cup filling projects.  Because, because yeah, even though I know that. And I talk about it. I  still, that doesn’t mean that I’m perfect at it. And I think that that is  something to remember when people are learning this. 

I think we tend to be really hard on ourselves and expect perfection. And  then when we’re not perfect, we’re like, oh, I suck at this or whatever,  and I think it is really important to remember that like, you can know  these things. And if you find that you can’t do them, even though you  know them, that is not a sign of your failure as a, as a human being. It’s  just a sign that you need rest. And you need to fill your cup. Because it is  hard. Human behavior is hard, right? Even, even when you know what to  do, you’re still spending energy doing it. So, I think that’s an important  sort of the next step of that lesson of getting curious is, care of yourself  in the process of getting curious, cause it does take effort for sure.  

[00:34:38] Ryan: Yeah. And I think if, if my wife listens to this, she’s  going to be saying, who is this Podcast Ryan? And can he have a  conversation with Husband Ryan? Because he could, he could, he can  see some pretty good wisdom with Husband Ryan. In fact, Husband  Ryan, come here. Listen to this.  

[00:34:54] Emily: You know what? I’m going to pull out another  Susanism. Because I was talking to Susan about this and she  responded to me when I was just telling her about how I get this, what I 

call Crucial conversation fatigue when I’ve had to have too many crucial  conversations and then I just can’t anymore, and I am not my best self.  And I was telling Susan that, and, and she just nodded her head and  paused for a little bit. And she goes, I am at my best self when I am  teaching, and in the rest of my life, I aspire to be my teaching self. And I  was like, all right, that’s a really good way to think about it. 

[00:35:27] Ryan: And that, and that’s the Susanism that jokes when it’s  Susan. I hear Susan do often than she does with me. And, and I think  my kids. My kids make, I want to be Podcast Ryan and I’m motivated to  be Podcast Ryan for my kids at the moment. Like I have this brand new  motivation in my life that’s making me think about everything that my  kids are seeing me do and modeling, so.  

[00:35:50] Emily: I think it is important to model imperfection and how  you respond to that. Because nobody’s, nobody’s, nobody is going to be  our podcast selves, or our teaching selves 100 percent of the time. So  modeling what, what, how you handle the situations where you’re not  your best self, I think is just as helpful, and healing, and supportive for  the people who are learning from you as it, as, I think it’s more helpful  and supportive than if you were just always perfect. 

Because if you were always perfect, then people would be like, well,  clearly you’re not human. You’re some like superhuman saint thing, but  when people get to see you just be a human, and be flawed, and  imperfect and see how you handle that and process that, I think that’s  the most supportive thing you can do. It takes you off the pedestal and  puts you squarely on the ground And shows people how to, how to be a  flawed human, you with still compassion.  

[00:36:38] Ryan: I love, I love being a flawed human. 

[00:36:40] Emily: I do too. Yeah. It’s great. I wouldn’t want to be perfect.  Here’s, here, I’m going to, I’m going to say something that Allie and Ellen  are going to to like chuckle and just put their foreheads in their hands.  One of my favorite things is when I do things that make Allie and Ellen  chuckle and put their foreheads in their hands, I love it. I love just doing,  just being like, just Emily and having my business partners slash  professional wives. Just be like, why are you Emily? Like it’s delightful to  just be maybe not, not the most perfect human.

[00:37:11] Ryan: When, when I, when I say I like being flawed human,  what I mean is that those that flawedness albeit extremely  uncomfortable and unpleasant to sometimes have to navigate. That the  growth mindset allows you to reframe that, to first feel that and go, this is  a hard situation. If someone else was in my situation right now, they  would find it hard. It is okay to feel not nice right now. This is hard. But  then to go, what, what can I learn from the situation? That is, that is what  I mean. Like that learning part that often might come after, it might come  significantly after, but that growth and that curiosity about what you can  learn, and what you can take away, and how you might do things  differently, that that is what I mean when I say I like being a flawed  human. 

[00:38:03] Emily: Yes, I agree with you. I was being a little bit flippant  because I enjoy, you know, playing. I am reinforced by hazing my, my  business partners. 

[00:38:13] Ryan: I am so reinforced by it. 

[00:38:16] Emily: So I was being a little bit flippant, but yes, absolutely.  My biggest growth moments are like come immediately after my biggest  failures, right. The moments when I absolutely have a meltdown are the  

moments that I’m like, oh, okay. So something happened here that I  need to, I need to learn from and grow from. So yes, yes. Thank you for,  for being, taking the topic more seriously. Cause I was, I was poking at  my, the two women that I love most.  

[00:38:44] Ryan: I I like to poke people and it, and it trouble.  

[00:38:48] Emily: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. it’s delightful. It is, it is. Okay. So I,  I, we’ve, I love letting the conversation go where it goes. But I will be  very sad if I don’t get to say this. So I’m just going to say that I’m really  excited that we finally get to have you here on the podcast, and finally  get to offer some reciprocity because, for those of you listening, who  don’t know, Ryan has been incredibly kind to us over the years and it’s  just always a joy to work with you. 

And I will tell you that Allie, and Ellen, and I collaborated on the interview  topics we wanted to cover because we were, we were like, okay, what  do we, what do we want to know about Ryan? Like, now that we get him,  like bring him into our sphere, what are we going to, what are we going 

to talk to you about? So, you said at the beginning that Reg slash Bob,  you, you talked about his influence on you.  

And I know that we were planning on talking more about him, I, I actually  have a question about the buzzard. So, I’m curious if you read the, him  grabbing at your shoes as coming from that rock throwing behavior, like,  was that, is there a connection you think between the shoe grabbing and  the rock throwing? 

[00:40:03] Ryan: Potentially. I, I had actually never thought about that  before up until this moment. And likely, maybe I did, because in Susan’s  Functional Assessment of Intervention Design Forms, one of the  questions is, this isn’t verbatim, but something along the lines of, how  does this behaviour serve the species in the wild? So, undoubtedly I  would have asked that question, and logically, what you’ve just  explained is something that might fit in as an answer to that question. So  potentially I did think about it at the time.  

[00:40:37] Emily: So the reason I’m asking is because I’m really curious  if he had opportunities to throw rocks in other ways. And if so, what did  that look like?  

[00:40:45] Ryan: Yeah, so, that behaviour of picking up rocks and  throwing them at eggs is, why, for, I don’t, I don’t know a black breasted  buzzard that’s in a context like, Kingy was, the context being a training  context where this animal is going to be performing behaviours in front of  zoo visitors. I don’t know of any, and I’m sure there are, but I don’t know  of any black breasted buzzards that aren’t in that role in, in a, zoological  context and again, I’m sure there are if you’re listening, and I just don’t  know any. But that behavior was something that with black breasted  buzzards, and and other species who do similar behaviors, I’m thinking  of a seriama which picks up lizards, and like slams them down on rocks,  like these are innate behaviors. 

So we could give Kingy a rock, and we could give Kingy an egg, and  And we wouldn’t have to think about a shaping plan. We would get the  behavior of picking up the rock and smashing the egg. So, a big part of  having a black breasted buzzard in a show context is the creation of  eggs. So you have to literally make eggs. 

So there, I can’t even remember what the material was that we made the  eggs out of. It was like a clay type substance, and we had molds and 

every day we would have to make these eggs. And with a, with a hole in  them, I can’t even remember how we did it, but we put meat in them, and  then we’d put these two pieces together and we’d have these eggs that  we could use for the show. 

For the, for the times when we took Kingy out and showed visitors what  these birds are doing in the wild. So, lots of opportunities daily to, to  perform that behaviour. And you didn’t get trained every single day, but  generally speaking, to do that specific behaviour. 

[00:42:28] Emily: Okay. Thank you for sharing that. Because when you  were describing this behavior, I was like, I am sure there is some cool  enrichment stuff that was happening with this rock throwing behavior.  And that is so cool. Making eggs out of clay. I, I don’t know that I would  have thought of that. That is so clever. I probably would have just like,  been like, how do we get emu eggs for this guy? 

[00:42:52] Ryan: I mean, I think people do it much smarter now where  they’ve got like an egg that they can put back together. At the time, the  technology we had was, we were literally making every single egg. 

[00:43:02] Emily: That’s so cool. Thank you for sharing because I had a  feeling that it was going to be something really awesome like that. Okay.  So I, I have a question that’s actually a series of questions. So first of all,  you’ve worked in animal care all over the world, and with people from all  over the world and what are some skills that you’ve worked to develop  

when navigating relationships that span time zones and cultures? 

[00:43:26] Ryan: Yeah, well, I think the time zone and cultures thing, I  don’t, I can’t think of any cultural stuff that’s been super tricky to  navigate. Time zones can be. Just had two people this week schedule  1am calls for themselves without realizing that that had happened. It’s  difficult with the UK and Europe at the moment and being in New  Zealand, but anyway, I think the relationship stuff has been, is universal  in my experience anyway. 

Language and, and the understanding of words and, and those kinds of  barriers definitely can influence things. But I haven’t, I haven’t found that  it’s influenced things enough to really be a problem. It, it, it can be in  terms of how things come across in a community context. And I, and  I’ve, I’ve had, I’ve heard people say before, oh, in my culture, we’re just  more straightforward and we’re more blunt.

And that irks me a little bit, because I think, if you’re acknowledging that,  and you’re an individual learner, that you’re acknowledging that you’re  kind of framing something to say, I’m going to present something that I  know might upset my audience. And I, and I, and I feel like, it’s  disempowering to the person saying it because you have the opportunity  to say some, to say it differently. If you are aware that your audience  might respond in a certain way.  

[00:44:59] Emily: I am going to offer my perspective because I am one  of those people. And I think not only do I come from like in, in Texas,  the, the, sort of like saying that we have about our communication and  cultures that we’re straight shooters. We mean what we say, and we say  what we mean. And then I think that is compounded by the fact that over  the past few years, I’ve discovered that, I both have ADHD and autism.  And people with these different neurodiversities, particularly autism,  really struggle reading social cues, and subtext in, in conversation. And  so, it was really validating and an aha moment for me because I often,  felt confused by the way that I, perfectly capable of understanding,  detailed and nuanced information and yet I would, and I don’t consider  myself a gullible person. I am, I’m very interested in and, and cultivating,  and utilizing critical thinking skills. And yet. I would completely miss the  point of conversations. People would say something to me, and I would  have no idea what they were talking about. And, and that contributed a  lot to my social anxiety because I had, by the time I’m in my forties, I’ve  learned enough to know that people had subtext, they were saying  something with their body, or their words, but I couldn’t understand what  they were saying.  

And so, and conversely, there have been many times in my life when I  have said something that I felt was just a neutral observation, it wasn’t  meant as a criticism, it wasn’t meant as an attack. It would, to me, it was  the equivalent of being like, Oh, it’s raining outside. Or like, oh, my grass  is yellow because it’s summertime and the grass gets yellow in  summertime. I would make a statement that would feel to me that  emotionally neutral. I And get these huge offense reactions from people  where people would call me difficult, or say that I was being abrasive.  And I, and I would be very confused because I’d be like, I don’t  understand why this is offensive because I I’m literally just making an  observation that was not in any way meant to be a criticism, and there’s  just big feelings about this thing that I just said, right? 

And so for me, I have learned to preface things that I’m like, this sounds,  this seems to me like one of those situations where I’m going to say  something that feels to me completely neutral and, but it feels like  something that people might have feelings about, but because I have no  idea why they would have feelings about it, I’ve learned to just say, I’m  just going to say this the way I know how to say it, and I’m a very, I’m a  very direct person, I’m a straight shooter and I’m autistic, and so like, I’m  just going to make an observation and I’m just saying up front, this is not  a criticism, it’s just an observation. 

So I’ve learned to have to like preface what I say with this disclaimer  almost, because I’ve, I’ve just had enough learning history where I’m  like, oh man, somebody is going to have feelings about this, and I don’t  know why, and I don’t know what about it they’re going to be mad about,  but they probably will be because this has happened to me before.  

So, that is, that is my perspective of why, I have those conversations  with people. The other reason that we have those conversations is  because in PETPro, and when we hire people onto our team, we talk  about our communication style so that people know what to expect from  us. So when people first joined our team, or when people joined  PETPro, we’re like, hey, some people in this program, use no subtext or  it takes a lot of energy and effort to manufacture subtext. Other people  are really comfortable living in subtext and it’s hard for them to get out of  that and, and say what they mean to me, what they say and speak very  directly. And it’s important to know that so that we can avoid  miscommunications and hurt feelings if we’re aware of each other’s  communication styles.  

So we invite people to do some self reflection, and share that so that  when we’re in conversation in these, in this mixed company, that people  can be aware that, oh, this person’s a direct communicator, so they  probably don’t mean anything by it. There’s probably no ulterior motive to  that statement. It probably just, they probably just mean exactly what  they said verbatim. Whereas this person might be trying to tell you that  she’s uncomfortable, and she doesn’t know how to just say, this makes  me uncomfortable, 

so we got to maybe listen more to the body language and know that  there are that we need to read between the lines, and then they’re not  going to be offended when I, a direct communicator asked them, I can 

see that you have subtext. I can see there’s something between the  lines, but I have no idea what it is, can you help me with that? Right?  

So, we found that it’s actually really helpful to speak openly about our  different communication styles so that we know what to expect, and we  can avoid that kind of hurt feelings type of thing that happens. You know  what I mean? 

[00:49:44] Ryan: I do, and I want to express gratitude to you for your,  your bravery in offering a different perspective to one that was just  shared, I want to just say I value that highly. And I want to express  empathy for you with some of those challenging situations that you were  in, because I imagine that that would have been really difficult. 

[00:50:08] Emily: Thank you. I think communication is always difficult  regardless of what your communication style is. And I will say, having  just shared my perspective, I have also heard people say, I don’t have to  worry about your hurt feelings, and I can say whatever I want without  consequences because I just say it like it is, or I’m just a blunt speaker.  And I think that’s very different from what I’m talking about. But I still felt  it was important to share my perspective because if people don’t know  that there’s a difference, they may not be able to see a difference  between those two attitudes. And, and I think it is important to see the  difference between somebody who comes from a different  communication culture, or somebody who is neurodiverse in some way  versus somebody who’s just totally unconcerned with hurting other  people and not willing to be accountable for their behavior. I think that is  an important distinction to make. 

[00:51:00] Ryan: Right, and I’m glad for this opportunity, and I’m grateful  for this opportunity to have this conversation and have it brought to my  attention that I communicated that poorly because if you were thinking  that, and the listeners of this show might have had similar experiences,  then that would have been insulting. 

And I could see how me saying that that irked me would irk you, having  been through the situations that you’ve just shared with us. So, I’m  grateful for this opportunity, that is happening right now to be a flawed  human. And to, after this episode acknowledge, or not acknowledge,  but, think about and deliver that perspective with more care, and, and  nuance, and explanation. And I, I think you’ve done something that I 

didn’t even have clear in my mind when I said it in terms of the  distinction between those two things. 

[00:52:00] Emily: For what it’s worth, I didn’t feel irked by it at all. The  reason I was big grinning when you were talking is because I know  exactly what he’s talking about. And also, we need to tease apart these  distinctions because they’re important. So, I’m not offended because I  understand your, your hurt and frustration when people don’t care about  bulldozing other people’s feelings is valid. And also, I’m in a position to  share those nuances with you, so I was not irked. 

[00:52:25] Ryan: Yeah, and, and, and I think what you do so well is, and  what Crucial Conversations, which is something that I wanted to talk  about when reading that you’d sent me this question, teaches us, Crucial  Conversations for those who are listening and are not aware is a whole  suite of resources around that now. But it’s, was first brought to my  attention by the book, which is con, con, it’s contrasting. It’s to say, I  want to talk about and address this, but what I don’t want to do is this.  And that’s something that you’re very good at. And I think that, that is  part of the nuance and part of the distinction that you described is that  when you are describing what you just described to people who join your  program, I’ve got no doubt that you do that in a way that makes it safe  for you as a neurodivergent learner. It makes it safe for someone joining  your community, and makes it safe for those in the community who  might be watching this interaction. To feel like, oh, this is a space where  I can be vulnerable, and I can let my guard down a little bit, and I can  share my training videos, and I can share my struggles, and I can share  my human things. 

So by saying, look, I am someone who talks straight shooter, or I talk  directly, I don’t mean to influence, I don’t mean any insults, I don’t mean  to disregard how that might land with you. That’s not my intention. My  intention is to help you grow your training skills. So that’s that kind of  contrasting, I think that is powerful.  

And that, and, and so I think there is that difference over people who  lean on, I am from this community and therefore I’m not going to, I’m just  going to like lean on that, therefore it doesn’t matter what I do now. It’s,  it’s a nuance and I’m struggling to describe it and, and I think it comes  from personal experiences where I’ve like been like, no, that is not okay.

[00:54:39] Emily: Yes, yes. It is, it is really hard to, to strike that balance  between acknowledging differences in our neurotypes, differences in our  cultural background, differences in our communication styles, and still  remaining accountable for our behavior. And, and we see, and it’s the  same thing for job performance, and chronic illness. That, like there are  many times when I have not been able to, do my job or carry my weight  in the way that I should because of my chronic illnesses. And there are  times when I’ve had difficulties in conversations because of my  neurotype, and my cultural background. And it’s really hard to figure out  how much of this just needs accommodation because it’s the way I am,  and I can’t, help it. And how much of it is like, no, I’m still accountable for  the things that I do. I’m still accountable for my behavior, even though I  am in some ways compromised, or I have additional struggles or I have  a, or maybe it’s not an additional struggle, but we’re just speaking across  cultures. That is hard. 

And I think a lot of people miss the mark, but if our, if we create a space  in a community where our shared agreement is accountability, and  listening when people have tell us that we have caused them harm, and  working to repair that relationship with, then even if we do make  mistakes, we can still have a restorative conversation where we can  restore whatever, the harm happened or whatever loss happened.  Instead of just being like, well, that’s a you problem, not a me problem.  Right? That, that kind of belligerence is, is the thing that doubles down  on the harm instead of repairing the harm. So, so yes, I could hear you  clearly through what you were saying. And I was just adding some  nuance, like you said, to provide that contrast.  

[00:56:28] Ryan: And, and it’s appreciated. And when, when you sent  your question to me, I, I, I, my mind went to all of the skills that Crucial  Conversation teaches us. And that I haven’t found that cultural  differences, and navigating every con, every situation I’ve had to  navigate through Animal Training Academy have been important once  we talk about the hard things. 

Now this is, this is I, I have this conversation with you and I have a lot of  respect and admiration. Because I can see the skill and, and thought  you have on this specific topic, and, and your ability to communicate that  better than me, I’m learning from you right now. And I think that when  you get in, when, if you’re the listener I’ll, I’ll like me when you get into  situations where you’ve gone, oh, crap, maybe I’ve offended someone 

and I really didn’t mean to, which, which I thought was in my mind just  then, right? 

It is an uncomfortable situation to be in. So what does uncomfortable  feel like? For me, it’s like a tightening of my chest, it’s like a clouding of  my thoughts, it’s like, more shallow breaths. It is indications, it is cues  that I’m entering into a crucial conversation, as defined by the book  where stakes are high, opinions vary, and emotions run strong, right?  and the thing that I’ve, the thing that I think about when you ask me this  question, so like navigating these relationships over the course of  Animal Training Academy, and my job is at Animal Training Academy all  about relationships. That’s all I do all day, every day. As we’ve built this  community and this community relies on trust over time. 

And what, like a lot of the time it’s just easy, like having a conversation is  easy, it’s fun. People, we don’t want to get into hard conversations, but  to build trust over time it really depends on how you navigate it when you  start to feel uncomfortable, and I relish opportunities to add deposits into  my trust account with someone, and to learn about someone when we  can actually have a conversation about something that’s hard to talk  about. 

And I think the skills from Crucial Conversations have not failed me. Like  I am, I am such a huge promoter of Crucial Conversations and I know  other people say, well, I like this book and I like that book, but whatever  works for you is, I think what’s most important in terms of that  conversation. But for me, I, I remember the first time I did, I had a crew,  well it probably wasn’t the first time, but I remember like some Crucial  Conversations I had as employees, as an employee in a zoo context. 

I remember one situation where there was rivalry for a position. All right,  and and there was a situation where I interpreted as people were trying  to get favor with the boss, right? The end goal being I want this position  

over you. And in a group context I I was sitting there and an individual  whom I interpreted as wanting this position and was like trying to get  social cred made a a joke about me that I found quite insulting in a group  context where everyone laughed. And I felt horrible and embarrassed.  And I felt horrible and embarrassed. And I felt horrible and embarrassed.  And this person was really quick witted and I just, I could not compete  with that. Not that I wanted to compete with it, but like, I had nothing to  say. I just had to sit there and be laughed at.

And so the crucial conversation I had at the time was like we’re, we’re all  here for the same reason, like we both want what’s best for the animals,  I know you want what’s best for the animals, I want what’s best for the  animals. We’ve got to work together to achieve this common goal. And I  don’t mean to say that I don’t like you, I don’t mean to say, and this is  really hard, first of all, this conversation is really hard for me to have, and  I brought up the situation, I’m like, I don’t mean to say like I don’t want to  be fun, I don’t mean to say like it’s not fun to joke about things, but uh,  that hurtt me in that context. And I know that’s, I know, like we’re here for  the same thing. I know we want the same thing. And I know, like, and  I’ve got a great relationship with that person still, like we’re friends. And,  and I think that’s the route I took on that conversation, if I’m  remembering it correctly.  

But man, that was hard. Like I was terrified of that conversation. My  chest was so tight, like my heart was racing because I’d never done that  before. But I think those, those skills that Crucial Conversation is  teaching us are contrasting as one of them, they, they haven’t, they  haven’t let me down and I’ve been able to navigate a lot of tricky  situations, some of them at the end, one of the questions that I take  away from Crucial Conversations and a really important one, is what I  want, what do I want from this relationship with this person? There are  times where after a set amount of time I’ve gone, you know what? I,  myself is more important right now than this relationship. So I’m just  going to have to, to call this, there’s, there’ve been a handful of times  where that’s happened, but not before considerable effort went in, and,  and that’s okay. 

[01:01:43] Emily: Exactly. Yeah. I call it emotional budgeting. Is, is the  relationship that I have with this person such that putting in the amount  of time, and emotional energy, and all of the stress recovery afterwards,  and completing my stress response cycle, and the way it’s going to  impact how I can show up for people who I am close with, and I do have  relationship with, that was a long sentence with way too many clauses.  So I got lost. But my point is like, is this relationship enough to, to absorb  the expense of the crucial conversation. And if it’s with some rando on  the internet, on social media, the answer is almost always no. So I just  don’t have those conversations on the internet anymore. But, but I do, I  do think about that when I’m, having those conversations. And also I  remember, how many of those I’ve had, I pay attention, I should say not  remember, but I pay attention to how many of those crucial  conversations I’ve had to have in a short period of time, because like I  mentioned before, I get crucial conversation fatigue, I run out of 

dopamine. If I have to have too many of those conversations in a row,  then I’m gonna hit a point where I can’t have them. I can’t do it anymore,  even though I know what I should say, something very different comes  out of my mouth. Right?  

And and so, yeah, learning how to kind of budget for that and say, you  know what, this is a really important conversation that I want to have  with you, and I, I can’t show up for you the way that you deserve right  now. So let’s circle back to this later when I finish. recuperate it a little  bit, that’s, that’s something that I’ve had to learn to say to people  because I’m like, I know if I try to have this conversation now, I’m going  to mess it up so bad.  

For me that the, the, the feeling that tells me I’m this is a crucial  conversation is a burning in my solar plexus. And you have a tightening  in your chest. I think it’s an important task to identify your ladder of  escalation, just like we have our clients do with their pets. Is like, identify  your own ladder of escalation so that you can be aware of your  physiological responses, and that can be a cue for you to either put on  your crucial conversations cap or ask to reschedule. 

[01:03:55] Ryan: Yeah, and, and I think being a cue is really important.  And, and so for me, it’s a, it’s a cue to say, is this a crucial conversation?  Is this thing we’re about to talk about, are the stakes high? Yes. Are my  emotions running strong? Yes. That’s why I’m asking these questions.  Do opinions vary? Yes. Okay. All right, just acknowledge that what  you’re about to do is defined as by this book, a crucial conversations.  You’re either gonna handle this extremely well, or it’s gonna be a road  crash. So the it, so the, the tightening of the chest cues, asking your  crucial conversations questions, or for me it does. The answers that the  acknowledgement that it’s a crucial conversation, then cues to what the  book calls, slow down and start with heart.  

Okay, so, it can be hard to do this in real time. And that’s a skill that I  think is going to take a lifetime to build. For me, even after practicing all  of this and having, multiple Crucial Conversations, and when I say  practicing it and having multiple crucial conversations, what I mean is,  very intentionally and specifically implementing the tools as they are  described in the book, well, my interpretation of as they are described,  I’m sure, I’m sure varied from it. 

To starting with heart says, what I want for this relationship? What do I  want for myself? What do I want for the other person? What don’t I want  for the relationship? And I’ve added one, thank you Stuart Hoffman,  who’s a member of Animal Training Academy, how will the other person,  what will the other person think that I want if I have this conversation?  So that’s what slow down and starting with heart means, and it means  saying those things out loud.  

It means, so for example, When I, earlier in this conversation, thought,  oh, I’ve worded this badly. And my chest got a little bit tight. 

We can go, are stakes high? Yeah, they are high. They’re very high,  because if you are a neurodivergent, or if you’re a person who really  actually struggles with reading social cues, then I don’t want to offend  you, and I don’t want you to feel like you don’t belong in this  conversation with us. So the stakes are high. 

Are our emotions running high? If I’ve noticed that, the answer is yes.  

Do opinions vary? In this case, they didn’t, like, we were, I described  something poorly. And we’ve got a great relationship, Emily, where we  can openly and, and, discuss things and, have conversations about hard  things. So it wasn’t a crucial conversation. 

I didn’t need to go further, but that’s how I’d operate in that space. 

[01:06:30] Emily: There’s one thing that you said that I that kind of like  sent like fireworks off in my brain, which is, we you know, we actually  weren’t disagreeing that I was just providing some extra nuance. And I  had this immediate thought like man the more of these crucial  conversations I have, the more I realized that it’s actually pretty rare  when the people that I have these conversations with, that we actually  do disagree. Most of the time, when we have these conversations and  we invest in the time, we dig down, and we dig down, and we dig down,  we find that we do agree. We’re either just defining our terms differently,  or there are these dialectics, these seemingly opposing or mutually  exclusive truths that actually don’t oppose each other when you pull  apart those nuances. And so, and, and that may be a selection bias of  the people that I choose to have crucial conversations with.  

But I find that to be so often the case that there just aren’t very many  times that we ultimately have to agree to disagree because most of the 

time we find out we absolutely do agree, we just had different  perspectives or, or one of us had more information about something  than the other one did, or they’re like I said, we’re defining our terms  differently. And I think that that is to me, such a important and maybe  even sobering, but also empowering and encouraging thing to think  about. That most of the time the conflict isn’t real, it’s just an issue of  communication, that’s just something that I think a lot about. 

[01:08:03] Ryan: Yeah. And I can think of a handful, like literally  probably on one hand, the times where there’s actually been a difference  of opinion. And that, and I can only really think of one time where I, that,  that difference of opinion wasn’t resolved, but that didn’t end the  relationship. But it did, it did get to the point where we just had to say,  look, this is, and, and, and for me, it’s do I want to invest in this  anymore? It’s if I, if I invest in a conversation, I, they, they take time,  what could I be doing instead of having this conversation right now? 

Could I be spending time with my kids? If a conversation is going to drag  out for four hours, the answer is, yeah, I could. And then it’s not only  could I be spending time with my kids right now, like the emotional drain  of that means that when I now leave this conversation and sit in front of  my child, I might be physically there, but my mind is distracted with  everything that’s just happened.  

And so now I just said the opportunity cost makes me at times go, okay,  the opinion, the opinions are varying and I’m calling it, but I can only, I  can really only think of one situation. And even in that situation, I would  say the withdrawals from the trust account, and I’m going to apologize in  the interest of time, not describe what I mean when I say trust account,  you can Google Susan Friedman and Steve Martin’s great article called  The Power of Trust. But even though withdrawal from the trust accounts  have occurred. We’re not bankrupt, there is still a relationship there. 

[01:09:42] Emily: Yes. And we can, we can link to that in the show  notes. So you don’t have to explain it because it will be available for  people who listened to this episode. But yeah, that’s, that’s why it is  

budgeting, right? Because your resources are finite, your cognitive  resources, your emotional resources, your time, all of that is finite and  you have to think very hard about like, if I spend my resources on this  conversation, will I still have enough resources left over to really show  up for my family, my students, my clients, my close friends in the way 

that they deserve? Right? And if the answer is no, then you’re  misspending your budget, right?  

And so, yeah, I think that’s just such an important way to think about  those conversations is that, even if there is the potential to come to  some kind of resolution, will the effort involved in getting that resolution  steal resources from the people that you actually have a responsibility  towards. So yeah, that’s definitely, so that was a really long, beautiful  conversation. Thank you for that, that was a really long way of talking  about, just navigating working with people from around the world. I love  to hear that it’s not really so much about cultural differences as it is  about just communication skills in general. My next in that series of  questions is what parallels have you noticed between building a  community with humans and working with populations of non humans?  And what can we learn about human group management from non  human group management? 

[01:11:16] Ryan: I think that I am going to talk about the the fallout of  aversives and how that is mirrored with human learners in a community  context, the same as it is with non human learners. So we’ve got escape  avoidance behavior, apathy, over generalized fear, and aggression. So  I’m going to focus on those four things. 

So, in a community context, now my experience with managing a  community is online. So within our membership, we have our members  only Facebook group. And when I say my experience of managing it,  what I mean is we invest significant resources in that community in terms  of time. Currently we have an amazing team and, and that word amazing  does not do justice to the two individuals whom currently help me with  this really important task, and their growth mindsets, and their skills at  communication, paired with their amazing behavior, knowledge and  animal training skills. And, and those two people are Belinda Young and  Shelly Woods. So, I’m incredibly fortunate to be paired with this team at  the moment and who operate, beautifully together and whom I trust. And  who often offer me different opinions than the ones I have and question  the things that I, that I have. And I know that when I ask some questions,  like I, I, I’m looking for and hoping for that difference of opinion to, to help  me see where my thinking is maybe flawed and, and maybe what I’m  missing out on. So that, to this, this group of people. Daily, we invest two  to three hours a day, whether it’s me personally in the community or, me  expending Animal Training Academy’s resources, its finances to, get that  physical time in the community.

And so what, what is important in that community is what Belinda and  Shelly feel about their roles. What the individual person who’s posting a  question or sharing something personal or an insight feels. And what the  community feels about the interactions that occur in that space. How  they’re seeing an interaction and thinking, well, what if that was me? 

Like, is this, if I shared something safe, like how would I be treated?  And, and we hope our members know that they will be treated with  kindness and respect regardless of, of what they share. This is actually  bringing up memories of other crucial conversations now. When I first  got started and the group grew to a size that was starting to become um,  more manageable than it had been in the early stages of Animal  Training Academy, and we had some challenges in there, we decided to  create some guidelines some some rules. We call it the ATA Mindset  because I didn’t like the word rules, and I didn’t want it to have the  learning history that people might have with that word rules. And, and so  we created the ATA mindset and then we had to moderate that. 

And so, in the early days we highlighted for someone when they had  done something wrong. Air quotes, when they had, when they maybe  interacted in a way that wasn’t creating that safe environment or they,  they did, they talked about something in the group that was off focus.  Now, I think about this a lot. 

And I am eager to have conversations with people smarter than I am. To  wrap my head around this and understand this more. But one way I think  about that is adding something to someone’s environment. So, whether  it’s a comment in a group, or it’s a private message, to try and decrease  behavior, right? so I think about it as, With the future, the frequency of  the behavior in the future, like irrespective, like we’re trying to implement,  it’s not irrespective, it can’t be, but like that contingency, we would  predict that behavior would decrease, then it would be a positive  punishment contingency. And just doing that without realizing what I was  doing, because I hadn’t generalized my work with animals, non human  learners to human learners, and we saw aggression. 

We saw people verbally doing behaviour that we might label as  aggressive. Criticizing myself, or my community, and that we weren’t  good people. Or we saw apathy, suddenly the engagement of an  individual member would decrease significantly. They were still there,  but they stopped engaging. We saw over generalized fear in our  community. We see that all the time. So you, if you’re on Facebook and 

you join in the training academy, and there’s multiple reasons that I won’t  go into now as to why we chose to maintain a Facebook group. But if  you’ve had other experiences in other groups, then you’re bringing all of  that into Animal Training Academy, and you’re generalizing your fear of  being vulnerable, in this new space. So, what have we gone over so far?  Over generalized fear, escape, and escape avoidance behavior, you  might cancel your membership, and we’ve definitely seen that. 

So I saw all of that. fallout, I would say textbook. From the use of adding  something to someone’s environment with the intention of trying to  decrease behavior. Luckily, we caught that immediately. And we, we will  we had one of the forehead in the hand moments, and then we and then  since then and that was 2017 It’s been solely on antecedent  arrangement, and positive reinforcement of desired behaviours, while  ignoring undesirable behaviours, and shaping, and focusing on  individual members, focusing on the group dynamics. So, that’s the,  that’s the similarities I see between those two areas. And, and where,  like I said, you put your forehead in your hands because you, you  missed that initially. 

[01:17:11] Emily: I love that so much. I think it’s funny because,  obviously I think there is a lot of complexity to human behavior. There’s a  lot of complexity to non human behavior. And I think it’s really important  to honor those complexities and be aware of them. And also, it is  delightful to see how often we can really just go back to the  fundamentals to improve group dynamics and, and to improve like  individual experience of every learner in the group or each learner in the  group, just by focusing on those fundamentals of antecedent and  consequences and what does that look like?  

We take a similar approach. We have a code of conduct. And we have a  conversation with people and they violate, violate the code of conduct  where we point out like, this is the thing and it’s why it causes harm, and  this is what it looks like to do that differently. And we’ve only had twice  when we’ve had to take it past that initial conversation. But what’s  interesting is we still have relationship with the people, even after there  was a parting of ways. So, so we have, so we have a similar approach,  with similar outcomes, although there are some, there’s some slight  differences between how we handle those situations. 

[01:18:25] Ryan: The, you made me think that another one is, and, and,  and I, I can’t think of a last time a relationship was broken for that 

reason. Like, and, and, and maybe once a year or twice a year, I’ve  actually got to do that now because of the culture is, within our  community where we don’t see that. As soon as I see it, I very rarely act  on it either in terms of reaching out to someone. 

I, we, it depends. It depends, but once or twice a year probably I would  say at the moment. But another piece is the escape avoidance piece,  and there’s been multiple times when, because our members are  obviously in Animal Training Academy and our community, but our  community members are part of other communities. And our community  members are part of other communities with other members. So these  interactions happen outside of Animal Training Academy. And members  will escape Animal Training Academy because of It’s like, have an  unpleasant experience in your workplace, you might get over  generalized fear where you just start to feel that as you approach work in  your car, like before you even get there, you feel in your body the impact  of the aversives that you are anticipating are coming. 

Or escape avoidance behavior where you see that colleague coming  towards you at the other side of the path at your zoo, just thinking about  zoo context, and you intentionally go the other way to avoid them. So,  we see that in our online space as well, if people have unpleasant  experiences outside of our community, they might leave our community  to avoid what’s in our community, even though nothing happens in our  community. 

[01:20:09] Emily: That’s beautiful. Thank you. Thank you for, for  discussing that. I think it is a really, really profound reminder that all  learners are subject to the same universal laws of behavior. And it’s not  a big mystery. There’s, there are things that we can do to improve our  spaces in really, consistent ways, right? 

[01:20:29] Ryan: I want to give credit to Wouter Stellaard, who, was  used to work with Natural Encounters and Steve Martin. He has his own  company now, I’m sorry, Wouter, I can’t remember the name of your  organization right now, but he really highlighted for me and drew the  similarities between what we do with our animals and what you  experience in the workplace. A situation that everyone can relate to. It  was so powerful for me. So those two examples of the workplace I used  credit goes to Wouter for, for helping me see it.

[01:20:58] Emily: Love that. Yeah. Thank you for crediting him. All right.  At the end of every interview, I ask the same set of questions. And the  first of those is, what are our observable goals and actionable items that  people can take away from this discussion? 

[01:21:12] Ryan: I think a big one that I wrote down in preparation for  this and it’s beautiful that it came up because it wasn’t intentional in  terms of me talking about it or you bringing it up. I can’t remember so  that I could bring it up here again, but it did. And that is that I want  trainers to know that they’re not alone and that we’re all in this together  to improve the lives of the learners, we work with. Both what you guys  do, what we do at Animal Training Academy, we’re all working towards  the same goal to have our biggest possible positive impact and to be  brave, to be courageous, to stick your hand up, to ask questions, to  understand rather than judge. And as Susan Friedman and Rick Heister  said recently, to move slow and to think fast. Sorry, move slow and to  think hard. Move slow, think hard. Hard, not fast. That would be  contradictory. 

[01:22:02] Emily: It’s delightful. It’s delightful. All right. What is one thing  you wish people knew about either this topic, your profession, or  enrichment? Your choice. 

[01:22:10] Ryan: That it, that it’s okay not to know things and that, but  that’s hard and that’s something that I still work on with myself. That it’s  just okay not to know things. And I think the coolest thing about where  I’ve got to with Animal Training Academy is just, again, as you said  earlier, to realize how little I know, but to now have this network where  like, man, there’s so many people I want to learn from. And to help me  with the challenges that I see with my animals in my own home, even  though I’m a professional trainer, I’m just completing my exam for  Jennifer Shryock’s Family Paws program. And I’m four years in to having  a kid, and I know how much that I don’t know, so it’s okay to not know.  

[01:22:55] Emily: We, we love Family Paws. Shout out to Family Paws.  And yes, it is absolutely okay to not know things. My wish for everybody  is that they can cultivate, they have the opportunity to cultivate the same  kind of excitement that my mother cultivated in me when I discover that I  

don’t know something. Instead of shame or fear, it’s like, oh, there’s a  whole new adventure before me. And I’m sad that so many people did  not receive that experience in childhood. And I, I, I hope for everybody 

that they have the opportunity to feel that way. What is one thing you’d  love to see improved in your field? 

[01:23:34] Ryan: Well, we’ve got a podcast show at Animal Training  Academy, over 230 episodes, but I’ve had, and I’m thinking of an  episode now where a guest told me that they had received death threats  because they used a specific tool or specific tools. I asked that guest  how they felt and they said, dark, very, very dark. 

There’s a place where I don’t want anyone to go, I’m talking about  suicide. And and I was really grateful for this particular person to share  their story because when people are on social media, and they’re adding  things to people’s environments, comments, etc, to try and get them to  decrease behavior, which may or may not be the function, they might  just want the social reinforcers they get from people liking and reacting  to their comments. 

Regardless, those actions have very real implications for the receivers.  And we wouldn’t do this without non human learners. But some of the  stuff that’s happening in some of the conversations that I’m seeing, and  I’m grateful that this person allowed me to ask them these questions.  We’re lucky they’re still with us. We can’t be implementing tools with one  species and, and think that the science of our trade doesn’t apply to  others. It does. It applies to human learners. The science of behavior  works the same for all earthlings, and using aversives has fallout. And I  just want people to be more aware of that when working with each other. 

[01:25:00] Emily: Yeah, I, I, I’m going to add on to that because I  absolutely agree with what you’re saying. And also I think the reason  that that happens, I think there are many reasons that that happens, but  I think most commonly the reason that that happens is because there’s a  balance to be struck when, when harm is happening, that harm needs to  be dealt with. Because when we permit harm or we don’t we don’t work  to, to stop harm we are in ways enabling it or, or endorsing it in some  ways. And so. We see a lot of times this happens in social justice work  when people are new to social justice work, and they see harm  happening, they just go way over the top in terms of their hostility in how  they respond to and, and try to address harm.  

And I think that is a stage of learning where we go over the top. And  then the more you learn, the more how you learn to be effective at  stopping harm without egregious hostility, unnecessary hostility. And I 

see that happening a lot in our field where people get overly zealous and  how they respond to, their perception that harm may be happening,  whether or not it’s actually happening, right? And I’m not saying this to  defend that behavior. But I think it has helped me when, when seeing  that behavior to learn how to discuss it in a way that acknowledges that,  that their feelings are valid, and that their desire to reduce harm is a  good thing, and also there are different, more effective ways to go about  reducing harm.  

We don’t have to, our two options aren’t be nice to everybody and  including the people who are causing harm and enable harm, or just go  super, super violent. Like there, there are more options than those two  extremes, it’s that’s a little bit of a false dichotomy. And so, I’m, I’m  putting this out there because I want people to continue to care about  working to reduce harm. I want people to continue to have that  commitment to that desire, and also it is important to learn more  effective ways to do that so that you are not a victim of causing more  harm in your attempts to reduce harm.  

So I just had to, I had to acknowledge that because I see that happening  over and over again in our field. And, I, I’m sympathetic to the ways in  which people miss the mark and also, yeah, they’re missing the mark  and causing harm by doing that. And, past me did that too, cause I don’t  think, I don’t think it’s like, I’m not special, right? Like, like we, we, I think  many of us go through that learning process, but, yeah, it’s, It is, first,  you have to learn to, to assess whether or not harm has actually  happened, and then you have to learn better to it.  

[01:27:43] Ryan: Yeah, it’s not, disagreeing is not the problem. It’s, it’s  how, it’s how we disagree. And I think that the whole point of crucial  conversations is to, to never not speak up, but it’s how you, how you  speak up. Like the point is not to, cause the opposite of being, over  aggressive in your communication style, crucial conversations call it  silence or violence. So that would be a violent communication style. The  opposite is silence, and not saying stuff for something at all. And that is  not, not what the aim is. The aim is to, to learn the skills to disagree in a  way, and each, I hesitate because each situation is so unique and so  nuanced, it really is, you just can’t apply these black and white rules to  everything. It just does not work. I’ve tried, it doesn’t work. But, generally  speaking, to practice handling the conversation in a way that provides  safety for all involved, including yourself and including for those who  you’re talking to.

[01:28:46] Emily: Yes. Absolutely 100%. I, I love that you brought it back  to the terms that they use in Crucial Conversations to connect those  dots. I think that’s beautiful. And yes, absolutely. The, the, the framework  that I find really helpful in terms of working with humans is the restorative  justice movement. I think it has a lot of, benefit for teaching people how,  how to, how to apply those Crucial Conversation skills, in a way that  reduces harm all around. 

[01:29:15] Ryan: well I just want to say, before you say that, I just want  to say how much, how much I value um, and appreciate a couple of  things about you, Emily. One is your knowledge and, and the, the  thought and the, the, the care that you put into thinking about these  topics. And the other thing is your ability to articulate those, and, and  speak up and, and share them. And I just wanna say just in, in the  process of doing this podcast, I’ve learned a lot from you today, and, and  really appreciated, all of the different contributions you’ve made, but  especially that little last one. Then I just, I just enjoyed your way of  delivering that insight and that information. I, I, I’m not sure if I can  pinpoint exactly over and above what I’ve just shared, what that was, but  it was done really well, and I learned a lot just in the last couple of  minutes. 

[01:30:03] Emily: I appreciate that. That is very kind of you. And also  that reminds me that one of the things that I wanted to tell you on in this  episode that I forgot to because we got wrapped up in our conversation,  is how so let me start over. I, everything you said to me back at you, I  feel like I learned from you every time I speak to you and you, you just  model this kind of calm, solid, steady dedication to compassion and, and  creating the community and all of those things. But like, every time I talk  to you, the thing that strikes me is that you are so good seeing a person  and finding the things that you value about them, and saying it to them  and articulating it so well.  

And when Allie and I were on your podcast last time, when we finished  and the episode was done, Allie was like, I have never felt so seen. And  I was like, yes, welcome to talking to Ryan because that’s what he does  is like he sees people and he calls out the things that he values, and it is  such a touching and validating and encouraging experience. And, and  you just do it every time you blow my mind every time. So, thank you so  much for that kindness. And I feel so seen. 

[01:31:17] Ryan: Is, that is such a huge compliment and one that I think  I might, thank you for telling me that, thank you for sharing that I’m not  going to forget that, what you just said. I never thought about it like that  before.  

[01:31:28] Emily: It’s true. Every time I talk to you. 

[01:31:30] Ryan: I mean, if you think about training our non human  learners, like, what are we doing with the clicker in our hand? We’re  looking for, often we reinforce more than we intend to, but what we’re  looking for often is the individual, very specific behaviour, especially  when we’re shaping, that we want to reinforce and we want to see more  of. So, when you’re giving feedback to someone, you’re like, in my mind,  like, that specificity is, I don’t even want to say that it’s often missed  because I haven’t really thought about it well to, like, say that right now,  but I just think that that is a piece from our training of non human  learners that we can bring over here to give feedback. 

Thank you, wannabe. really specific as best as you can. What specific  behavior do you want to see in Emily maintained as they show increased  in the future? Like, and in yourself and thinking about that for yourself as  well, what specifically did you do that you like? And that specificity piece,  I think it’s, it’s, it’s not an intentional thing I do. It just, I think it flows from  animal training. 

[01:32:33] Emily: Right, I think that it’s you do it extraordinarily well and  it speaks to your fluency at these skills. So yes, because that’s fluency is  when it just comes second nature to you and you don’t even realize that  you’re doing it, right. Like it’s hard to explain to other people what you’re  

doing because it comes second nature to you. and and so I think that’s  what we’re seeing here is that you were just so fluent at that, that you  don’t even realize you’re doing it, but you are. And we, we, we we realize  that we feel it.  

[01:33:02] Ryan: Amazing. Thank you so much.  

[01:33:04] Emily: All right, what are you currently working on? If people  want to work more with or learn from you, where can they find you? 

[01:33:10] Ryan: So, we are dedicated to helping trainers and, and they  saw others who want to grow their animal training knowledge, and what  flows from growing your animal training knowledge is skill and 

confidence. So that is our game. That is what we do. We know, again,  as just said, that there is no black and white tools and resources that we  can apply. 

There is and there isn’t, but every situation, every single situation is so  nuanced. Each individual learner that there’s just so many opportunities  to get stuck and hit rough patches and be left there scratching your head  like I was with Reg the Wedge, all of those years ago. So that that’s why  we exist really is to help trainers build their skill, knowledge and  confidence so that they can bust through when they’re getting stuck and  they’re getting hitting rough patches.  

I know firsthand what that feels like to be isolated, to be confused, to not  know what you’re going to do next, or how to move forward. Stressful,  can be embarrassing. You know, it’s embarrassing to like have Your  learners doing specific, learners in your care doing specific behaviors  and then for whatever reasons, and then to admit that to other trainers.  Going out to people’s houses and training their animals and then coming  home and your animals are like, your dog’s on the table, or they’re  jumping up at your visitors, or whatever it is. Like, it’s, there’s so many  emotions involved with being a trainer. I feel like we’re, like Luke  Skywalker in Star Wars. And he’s on his way to blowing up the Death  Star, and all he’s thinking is like, am I good enough to be a Jedi?  

Like, we’re out there like training dogs, and we’re often just like, Am I  actually good enough to be a dog trainer? Like, do I know enough? Am I  skilled enough? And, and I want to say that some people, you have to  build your knowledge and skills. We don’t want people going out there  just not thinking about that, obviously, but we’re human and we’re trying  to have this huge positive impact on, on our clients, on the animals, on  our communities and there’s a lot to navigate. So, that, that’s our game  at the moment. That’s what we do, very similar to what you guys do. We  have two peas in the same pod. And you can find us at a t a member.  com  

And we’ve got podcasts and blogs and all of the normal things over  there. In a book club. Yeah, we’ve read both of your guys books and and  on that note, I just want to say Like, you know when I say earlier that  there are people in the industry who I go oh my god, I want to learn from,  like you, your, your organization is right up there for me. Like I’m very  interested in diving in and doing your resources.

We’ve read your books in book club Allie and Emily your canine  Enrichment from the root for the Real World, then the workbook and I  haven’t even had to like, you read, you read a book like your workbook  and you’ve got all of your protocol is not the right word, but you’ve got  your tools, and you’ve got your sheets, at the back and you’ve got to fill  them out and you’ve, then you’ve got to go through like, is there agency,  is there not agency, and all of these questions and to come up with your  intervention design. 

Like you read, you read a book like your workbook and you’re like, wow,  like, but then you’ve got to like implement it, so, I’m at the stage where  I’ve like read it, and I’m already like, I’m already, Emily, when I have  clients I’m already going, okay, what are your approximations going to  be? 

You’ve got to read this book. Like, and I’m, I’m nowhere near fluency in  terms of implementing it, but like, it is at the top of my list of  recommendations that I’m giving to people. I just recently had a client  who’s KPA Certified and wants to start her own business and has got  some issues with their learner and like, the number one thing I said to  them was you’ve got to read this book. You’ve got to read this book. So,  I, I, you guys are one of the people that I’m desperate to learn from, but  yeah, I blame kids for not having done that yet. 

[01:37:17] Emily: I appreciate that. I appreciate the kind words. I, I think,  obviously Allie and I see the world through this enrichment framework.  We, we learned about enrichment from the very beginning. I learned  about enrichment from Scott Eccles before I even started learning about  behavior from Susan Friedman, so I came into behavior through that  enrichment lens. And, and I, I also, even though I, I obviously love  seeing behavior through an enrichment lens, and I think about a  behavior change through the enrichment framework that we’ve, we’ve  written about, I also feel like it’s really important for me to say two things  about that. 

One is that we didn’t, we didn’t invent this, it’s just a modified version of  the Spider framework, which was created for zoos. And we just tweaked  that a little bit to make it more applicable to the, the, the pet community,  

the, the companion animal community. The other thing I feel I need to  say about it is it’s not the only way to be really good and successful at  behavior change. I hope that nobody feels like if they’re not fluent at the  enrichment framework, they’re not good enough. I think the reason that 

we teach it to people is because for us, it is the easiest way that we are  aware of to really look at the whole picture to look at the animal in the  context of their environment, of their relationships, of their history, and  be really systematic and efficient at effectively really addressing the root  causes of those behavior. 

And I know root causes can be a tricky conversation that we can have at  some other time. But, the reason I say that is because. I think you are  spectacular at what you do with, or without having fluency in our  enrichment framework. I don’t think you need to be fluent at what we do  in order to be just absolutely fluent at what you do.  

[01:39:03] Ryan: But when I, when I started Animal Training Academy, I  was, I was in a different city and, and my friend from high school, really  motivated me and pushed me like, he’s got a very successful business  and he’s, he’s like, you’ve got to like share your knowledge, you have a  lot of knowledge, like, let’s package it and sell it. 

And like, you don’t have to work in the zoo if you don’t want it. And I was  moving back to Wellington, I didn’t know what I was going to do and I  was going to go back to university and he’s like, don’t do that. I’m not  saying that this is advice for everyone at all. But he’s like, don’t do that. 

I’m like, what do you mean? He’s like, man, like all of that information  that you get from your degree, you can find online for free. Like use that  money and grow your business, and I, for me personally, I’m not saying  this is generic advice, but for me personally, that was one of the best  things that someone told me. 

And so, what I love about your book is that I could get, I could go to the  Spider website and I could go and read all of his other enrichment stuff,  but where there’s value, I think, is when stuff is packaged in a digestible  way. That is easy, and, and it can be applied. And so that’s what I think  

you have done with your two books. 

And so I could go and learn from it in all other sources, but the reason I  want to learn from you is because of your skill at disseminating  information. And you do so much in that book of prefacing like, we know  how hard this is for the owner, this has to work for the owner as much,  you’ve, you’ve, you’ve used really safe language in there that makes me  go, oh, these are teachers I want to learn from.

It’s not just the information, it’s like, these are teachers that I know that I  would like to learn from who understand. what it is to, to make people  feel safe and integrate great teaching environment. So that’s, it’s, it’s  more than just the content, I think. 

[01:40:51] Emily: Well, thank you. And it goes both ways. Every time I  talk to you, I’m like, I want to learn more from Ryan. So maybe we can  just schedule some times to just like hang out and learn from each other.  Well, thank you so much, Ryan. It has been pleasure. I really appreciate  you. And it’s been wonderful to get to talk to you today.  

[01:41:08] Ryan: Thank you and to protect my own mental health I’ve  been saying no to most opportunities for years because I run ATA, and  I’ve got two kids and and I just was burning out because I was trying to  do too many things, but I could not say no to being on this podcast. And  it’s one of the best ones I’ve done in ages so thank you very much for  inviting me it was an absolute honor to be  

[01:41:28] Allie: Okay, what did I tell you? Ryan models boundless  compassion, a tireless growth mindset, and an extraordinary ability to  see the good in people and point it out to them in a way that makes them  feel so seen. I absolutely love every time that we get to speak with him.  Next week, we’ll be talking about how to identify your own ladder of  escalation. 

Thank you for listening. You can find us at petharmonytraining.com and  @petharmonytraining on Facebook and Instagram, and also  @petharmonypro on Instagram for those of you who are behavioral  professionals. As always links to everything we discussed in this episode  are in the show notes and a reminder to please rate, review and  subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts a special thank you to Ellen  Yoakum for editing this episode, our intro music is from Penguin Music  on Pixabay. 

Thank you for listening and happy training.