[00:00:00] Allie: Oso is not a daycare dog But every Sunday we walk in  this like corporate office park. And he knows when we’re coming back to  the car, especially because it’s the only car in the parking lot, usually.  And He knows our car and maybe it, it happens from further and further  away the past few months. Honestly, it used to be like we’d be five feet  from the car and I would open the door and he’d be like, Oh, but look  over there. There’s this really interesting thing over there that I haven’t  noticed before. And now it’s like, it’s like total Eeyore, but because he  loves corporate office park time. And, and then he eeyores all the way to  the car and he’s like, Oh, but this smell is really interesting for the next  like minute.  

Welcome to Enrichment for the Real World, the podcast devoted to  improving the quality of life of pets and their people through enrichment.  We are your hosts, Allie Bender… 

[00:01:07] Emily: …and I’m Emily Strong… 

[00:01:09] Allie: …and we are here to challenge and expand your view  of what enrichment is, what enrichment can be and what enrichment can  do for you and the animals in your lives. Let’s get started. 

Thank you for joining us for today’s episode of Enrichment for the Real  World, and I want to thank you for rating, reviewing, and subscribing  wherever you listen to podcasts. 

Last week, we heard from Renato Zanetti with Isa Daduato translating  and one of the topics we discussed was how to make dog daycares  enriching. This week, we’re going to dive further into how to tell if your  dog enjoys going to daycare and talk about implementation with the  animals in your life. 

In this implementation episode, Emily and I talk about the broad  applicability, even if your dog isn’t a daycare dog, when you turn a  corner and your dog realizes where they are, y’all know what we’re  talking about, the Eeyore thing, stalling versus resignation, and how  Emily is a fun ruiner. All 

So I’m a little nervous, a little excited for this topic, because daycare is  one of those things that people have big feelings about sometimes good  big feelings, sometimes bad big feelings, but I have met very few people  who are just like in the middle when it comes to feelings about daycare.

So, because there are a lot of feelings about daycares in general, we  figured one of the maybe safer, more salient topics to what we do with  enrichment is how to tell if your dog enjoys going to daycare. And I think  this is a topic that is so, so important. 

There are a lot of reasons why people recommend taking your dog to  daycare, there are a lot of reasons beyond enjoyment for it, like boarding  when you’re on vacation and things like that, but when we’re talking  about, like, what does daycare actually do for your dog, and is this an  option that we should choose regularly, I think enjoyment has to be a  part of that. 

[00:03:10] Emily: I think that’s a really good point because I’ve, I can’t  tell you how many times people have told me there are no good  daycares in my area. And I obviously, obviously, I am a big proponent of  improvement, and growth, and, and learning and making things better  for humans and for nonhumans. And at the same time, I’m also a big  proponent for existing in the real world. And so, if your real world  environment is that there aren’t any dog daycares that meet your  expectations of what you would ideally like to see, that doesn’t  necessarily mean that it’s not going to be beneficial for individual dogs. I  have seen some nightmare dog daycares, and I’ve also seen dogs in  those daycares living their best life because they don’t know that it’s a  nightmare. 

They just love being around other dogs. So, yes. I love the work that  Renato does and that other people like him around the world are  currently doing, which is trying to help dog daycares improve their  practices. And also in the meantime, you work with what you got. And so  the better question is, Does your dog actually enjoy the daycares that  are available to you? 

That’s the better question for existing in the real world. So today we’re  going to talk about how we can determine whether or not your dog is  actually a good candidate for the daycare, or daycares that are in your  area and are available for you. 

[00:04:43] Allie: You know, we’re talking primarily daycares today,  obviously, because of our discussion with Renato last week, but you can  apply the principles that we are about to discuss with other people.  Other locations as well. That could be a boarding facility. That could  even be taking your dog to your parents house for Sunday night dinner. 

There’s a lot of ways that you can implement the, the points that we’re  going to discuss, even if your dog is not a daycare dog. 

[00:05:12] Emily: Yes, thank you for bringing that up. Because yeah,  there is broad applicability to figuring out if your dog actually enjoys the  thing that you’re doing because you want them to enjoy it, right? Do they  actually enjoy it? Like that’s a big deal, right? If the whole purpose of it is  for them to enjoy it. Do they though, right? So, so yeah, that’s beautiful.  

And the first one that I tell clients is. What does your dog do when they  realize where they are? Right? Because, and the reason that’s so  important is because there are some dogs who might be a little bit  anxious on a car ride. And so we can’t really ask, what does your dog do  when you put them in the car? 

Because if they’re, if they’re nervous about the car, because they don’t  know, is this a vet car ride or is this a going to grandma’s car ride or  whatever? We don’t want that to. Inaccurately skew our perception of  how they enjoy the particular destination that we’re taking them to. So  the question is, what does your dog do when they realize where they  are? 

And I think most people can relate to that, that their dog will be in the  car. And then you like turn a corner, you get onto a street or you pull into  a parking lot. And then they have like a big emotional response for, for,  for good or for bad when they realize where they are. right? So that’s the  question is how are they responding when they realize where they are? 

And even if you are not yet really fluent at dog body language, there are  some pretty good easy to, to see signals that can give you a clue. One is  If a dog is really into something, there is no question that they are into it  because they are looking towards it and they are all wiggly. And  sometimes they make ridiculous noises like right. 

Not all dogs do that, but some dogs do that. But we’re going to see like  them looking. toward and leaning towards and being really wiggly. And  those are some signs not loving something can be a little more subtle,  

but essentially if your dog is acting cool, like Fonzie and like not looking  in the direction of the thing, they’re probably not into it. 

That’s, dogs don’t lie when it comes to whether or not they’re into  something. They don’t know how to play coy. So if they’re like just 

staring out the window, like I don’t see where we are. What? That’s  probably a no, my friends. And then obviously there’s the big obvious  no’s like trembling and crouching or trying to get away or things like that. 

Most people can figure that one out, but I think the one where people  maybe don’t know what’s going on is when the dog is like, Cool like  Fonzie. And cool like Fonzie in this context is not a good thing because  playing it cool is a coping mechanism. It’s not a like, yeah, I guess I  could go here. This is fine. 

Like that’s not, that’s not how dogs roll. So that’s the first thing that I tell  people to look for is are they like wiggly leaning towards it, looking  towards it, or are they gazing wistfully out the window? 

[00:08:01] Allie: I would add to that how quickly they get out of the car.  Is it one of those where like you have to do just let the door crack open  slightly with the hand in so that you can grab the leash if you don’t, if  your dog doesn’t have a solid wait at the door? Or is it where you’re  trying to coax them out of the car? 

[00:08:22] Emily: Yes. Yeah, that’s a good one. And even for people  who have like really, really proofed a stay or a wait until they, the dogs  are released from the car. Even if you’re one of those people, I am not  one of those people, but even if you are one of those people, like how  quickly does your dog bound out of the car can still be a good indicator  that they were like, just waiting for the word to do the thing that they  wanted to do versus if you cue them and they’re like, fine. I’ll come  because you told me to. That’s probably not a good sign, friends. 

[00:08:54] Allie: So the next question, we have looked at what your dog  does when they realize that they are at daycare. The next thing to look  at is how does your dog respond when the daycare staff tries to take  them into the back? When we’re in the building, we’ve made it through  the lobby, you hand over that leash. 

What What does your dog do? Is your dog pulling that staff member  towards the back and knows exactly where to go and is like, I go in this  door and here is my run and here’s my friends? Or are they like can I  just like stay with mom instead? Could we not do this today? Thanks. So  we need to look at when it’s like, okay. It is now we are now attending  daycare. What does your dog do?

[00:09:44] Emily: Yeah. I tell clients sometimes if your dog looks like  Eeyore, they’re not thrilled to be there. It’s not that they’re being calm  and obedient. They’re not stoked my friends. Like if they’ve got the  hanging head and the hanging tail and they’re just going along with it.  That’s not the same thing as being stoked to be there. 

And what we want to see is they’re stoked to be there, right? The next  one is how do they respond when you come pick them up? It’s, I would, I  would hope that your dog is always happy to see you regardless.  There’s a difference between your dog seeing you and being like, Oh my  God. Hi, I love you so much. 

I have to tell you all about my day. I had the most ridiculous play  session. Like there’s the difference between that and when they’re not  focused on you at all, and they’re just focused on the exit and they’re  like, get me the hell out of here. Those are two very different responses,  right? So we’re not saying that if your dog is happy to see you, they had  a miserable time. 

If your dog is happy to see you, that’s actually probably an indicator that  they had a great time. If they are really eager to get out of the building,  or again, if they’re doing the Eeyore thing that’s probably a sign that they  don’t love it there. And the Eeyore is usually like they’re resigned to their  fate. 

Like, well. I survived. I suppose that’s all a dog can ask for and, and  that’s not what we want to see from a dog coming out of a daycare or  wherever, whatever, wherever they’ve been, right? 

[00:11:04] Allie: I will say there There can be a caveat to this because  now Oso is not a daycare dog But every Sunday we walk in this  corporate office park. he’s so funny. He like, he knows that we go pretty  much the same route. He gets to choose the route, but he usually goes  the same route each time with, with minor variants. 

And he knows when we’re coming back to the car, especially because  it’s the only car in the parking lot, usually. And He knows our car and  maybe it, it happens from further and further away the past few months.  Honestly, it used to be like we’d be five feet from the car and I would  open the door and he’d be like, Oh, but look over there.

There’s this really interesting thing over there that I haven’t noticed  before. And it took me a little bit to like, Get him in to the car and now  it’s, it’s honestly from like 50 feet away, it’s like we turned the corner, he  knows we’re going back to the car, and he starts walking so slowly. 

[00:12:09] Emily: That’s the cutest thing in my whole life. 

[00:12:11] Allie: It’s like, it’s like total Eeyore, but because he loves  corporate office park time. And I know that because when he knows  where we’re going, I mean, first of all, he knows it’s Sunday. He knows  our schedules well enough to know that it’s Sunday. And so he starts  asking me to go at about three or three 30 and I’m not done until four 30  or five. 

But that is when he starts bothering me on Sundays, only Sundays. And  then when I turn off my computer and. And all of that. He is just glued to  me like we’re going right. We’re doing it. And then I grab all of his stuff  and he’s so excited and, and all of the bolts out of the car. And, you  know, it’s just, he loves it so much. 

So I know that he loves being there because everything else says that.  And, and then he eeyores all the way to the car and he’s like, Oh, but  this smell is really interesting for the next like minute. And then, I, I,  yesterday he was just like, I’m tangled in my leash. I can’t walk. And it  was like around one foot. 

And he’s like, I can’t. I can’t walk like this. And normally he does not care  at all. And so we couldn’t even get to the car because he’s like, I can’t, I  can’t do it. So I will say there is a caveat for for when they come out and  they’re like, Oh, I have so much fun. Don’t want to leave. And 

[00:13:33] Emily: yeah, that’s a really good point to bring up. And while  you have been explaining your time with Oso, I think the distinction to  make is the difference between stalling and resignation, right? So, like, if  the dog comes out, like, as, like, as soon as the, Staff member brings  them to the front from the beginning. 

They’re just sort of like head down tail down or just like staring off into  the distance like glassy eyed stare. That is more like resignation.  Whereas what you’re describing with. Oh, so it’s more like stalling.  Right? So if they’re like, Oh, I need to just. Need a quick, like read this  female on the wall here.

Also I need to like check back and make sure the door was all the way  closed because maybe it wasn’t, and that would be real bad. Like you  can tell when a dog is stalling to leave somewhere and you described it  perfectly with, Oso, like, Oh, I’m caught in my leash. I can’t possibly, Oh,  I need to sniff this spot. 

I can’t leave until I fully. Take in everything. Right. I think that’s a really,  really beautiful distinction to make because it’s not one that I had thought  to mention, but it is a, it is a big deal. There’s a big difference between a  dog. Who’s like, this is my life now versus a dog. Who’s like, wait, we  can’t leave until I make sure that I have smelled absolutely every  molecule in this room. 

Right. So yeah, good, good point. Thanks for bringing that up. 

[00:14:54] Allie: Yeah. I think one of the differences is too, is that I’m  with him the entire time on the walk. It’s, how it’s just. We go home. 

Instead of there being that excitement to see me, I, I have a friend who  was just telling me the other day, actually, that they switched daycares  and she was telling me that she thinks her dog really likes this new  daycare a lot better. 

And what she described was, He came out of the back, saw her, got  excited, and was like, Oh, hi, mom! And then immediately tried to go  back. It was like, oh yeah, he’s enjoying that place. 

[00:15:30] Emily: He’s like, you’re here. Does that mean that you’re  going to join us? Can we all play  

[00:15:34] Allie: Right!? Do you want to come back too and meet my  friends? 

And then the last part of this, because As y’all know, we care about the  effect that something has on the individual. That’s what enrichment  means, is what is the effect of this activity. And so we want to notice the  difference between rest and exhaustion when your dog comes home.  And really we’re interested in this because If your dog is having the best  time of their life, it is a good thing for them to go. 

It is decreasing their stress. We will hopefully come home to a lovely,  snoozy dog. They’re, maybe hanging out on the couch. You sit next to 

them. You give them a little scritch. They open their eye and they’re like,  Oh, hi mom. And like give a little, little tail wag or something. And then  go back to sleep. 

Versus, if they were stressed the entire time that they were at daycare  and this is actually increasing their stress to go instead of decreasing,  then we might come home and they’re like, I’m too tired to even eat  dinner right now like that. I can’t do that. Maybe they go and put  themselves to bed and they’re sleeping for way longer. 

You can’t even get them up to go for nighttime potty. All of that sort of  stuff. That’s one of those where it’s like, Ooh, we might not have had fun  that day. 

[00:16:55] Emily: I had a client ask me a really good question about this  that has stuck with me. And she was like, well, when we take our dog  out to do these off leash mountain hikes a lot of times he’ll be sore for  the next couple of days. Cause he like goes hard and he’s had his  biggest Like the best time living his best life, there’s nowhere he’d rather  be than in the mountains, but he’s sore afterwards. 

So how can we tell the difference between him being just exhausted  from the stress versus like being sore because he overdoes it when he’s  living his best life? And I was like, Thank you for asking that question  because that is such a beautiful thing to care about and pay attention to.  And honestly, it’s something that I hadn’t thought to talk to clients about  before she asked me that question. 

So what we talked about with her, I can’t tell you what Every dog is going  to look like when they’re sore versus when they’re exhausted, because I  don’t know, because every dog looks different. So, what are some things  that we could look at that would make a difference that we would be able  to distinguish between? 

And I will say that I already suspected that this dog was not a candidate  for daycare, because The first three criteria he didn’t meet. And so I was  pretty sure that he was experiencing exhaustion afterwards because the  

first three were already not great signs. But that in this case, that was  not a bad thing because it’s almost like we could AB test it, right. 

And we could be like, okay, let’s look at the difference between when  he’s sore versus when he’s exhausted. And what, for this dog, She 

noticed is that when he was sore, he would still get excited about things  and he would still do the butt wiggle, but he was just very slow to move  and he would take his time laying down. 

Like it would take him a while to sort of like get down into that position  and he would maybe. Be more efficient in getting places. Like if he had  to go pee, he would just go like the closest spot on the grass to pee and  come back in as opposed to doing like sniffing around the yard and then  choosing his place. 

When he was exhausted, he wouldn’t get butt waggy. He wouldn’t really  engage in anything. He would just sort of like lay there, like, There’s  nothing like he was just a deflated balloon, and he didn’t have interest in  things in addition to like the, the kind of reduced activity level. So for him,  that was how we were able to distinguish between being sore overdoing  it and being exhausted from stress from prolonged stress. 

But. I, that’s like the, the good thing that came out of that for me is I have  to learn how to articulate to clients that you have to tell for yourself, if  your dog is a dog, whoever does it and get sore, you have to look for  differences between exhaustion and soreness. And I can’t guarantee  that what we saw for that dog is going to be true for every dog. 

So, so that was a really Beautiful learning experience for me as a  consultant of like, Oh yeah, that’s a really good distinction that I hadn’t  thought to talk to clients about. And my client taught me that that’s  something we need to pay attention to. 

[00:19:57] Allie: I love that story. 

I think that you brought up something that I, I wanted to tease out too, is  that the effects are not just that night that you come home, the effects  can last for several days. And so one of the things that when I have  clients who are Wondering if daycare is the right option for their dog. 

We look at how it affects their dog’s behavior for the next few days. Do  we see an increase in undesirable behaviors? Do we see an increase in  anxiety related behaviors? over the next few days because they might  come home. They’re exhausted that night. They’re not showing a lot, but  the next day we have a problem.

So keep in mind that we’re looking for the difference in behavior, not just  that night, but also for the next couple of days after that daycare  experience. 

[00:20:46] Emily: Yeah. And, and the opposite can be true as well  where like I’ve had clients say, well, I don’t want to stop taking my dog to  daycare because it wears them out for like three days. And I’m like,  okay, well, what is wearing out look like? And it looks like the dog is  totally listless, like doesn’t want to do anything. 

And I’m like, that’s not really what we want for our dogs. Like our goal is  not for a dog to have no interest in life for three days after going to  daycare. I know it’s more convenient because then you don’t have to like  worry about your dog or like take care of them. But is that really the  quality of life that you want? 

Like, how would you feel if after an activity, you could do nothing for  three days? Like you just had to stay in bed for three days. And when I  say that to clients, they’re like, Oh, yeah yeah, that, I mean, and of  course, there’s always somebody who likes to crack the joke, like, I  would love a three day vacation and I’m like, okay, but if you did that  twice a week, that would mean that six days out of seven, you couldn’t  function. 

And, so I, I’m the person who like ruins the fun and kills the joke by being  like, okay, ha ha ha. But seriously, though, that’s like not a great quality  of life. So, so yeah, I’m, I’m the joke killer there. But, I think it’s also  important to bring up that, like, it doesn’t make you a bad person for, for  mistaking exhaustion for rest, because it’s really important that you care  about the right things. 

And the fact that you care about your dog having their needs met, and  getting exercise, and feeling rested is so important. And so now it’s just a  matter of honing and refining. What that looks like and how we can tell  the difference between a dog whose needs have been met and a dog  who has been just completely drained.  

[00:22:19] Allie: So today we talked about how to tell if your dog enjoys  going to daycare. And the way to do that is to start with what does your  dog do when they realize where they are, then we’re looking at how do  

they respond when staff tries to take them to the back. Then, how do  they respond when you come to pick them up? And finally, noticing the 

difference between rest and exhaustion that night, and noticing any  behavior changes in the next few days. Next week is a Q& A episode,  and we will be talking about E-collars. Buckle up. 

Thank you for listening. You can find us at petharmonytraining.com and  @petharmonytraining on Facebook and Instagram, and also  @petharmonypro on Instagram for those of you who are behavioral  professionals. As always links to everything we discussed in this episode  are in the show notes and a reminder to please rate, review and  subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts a special thank you to Ellen  Yoakum for editing this episode, our intro music is from Penguin Music  on Pixabay. 

Thank you for listening and happy training.