#44 - Katie Sulzmann: The Benefits of Massage for Your Pet

[00:00:00] Katie: I started working with him, I’ve never worked with a lizard before, so I read up on their calming signals, and what their stress signs are, and asked her what he does when he’s in pain. I started working with him, and I basically was just feeling around, and it’s a little dif, different cause there’s spikes, so I can’t like just do the strokey motion.

Um, so I like add a little compression, and kind of just do some circles to see if I could feel any difference in the texture of the tissue, if I felt any heat in certain areas, if he reacted when I touched a certain spot, and then I did some mobilization of all of his joints just to see how far he could stretch those guys.

At first, he was like pretty active, and like wanted to move around, and then like 10 minutes into the session I kind of lifted him up and his legs were just hanging there like a limp noodle. I’m like, “Oh, I love it!”

[00:00:50] Allie: Welcome to Enrichment for the Real World, the podcast devoted to improving the quality of life of pets and their people through enrichment. We are your hosts, Allie Bender…

[00:01:08] Emily: …and I’m Emily Strong…

[00:01:09] Allie: …and we are here to challenge and expand your view of what enrichment is, what enrichment can be and what enrichment can do for you and the animals in your lives. Let’s get started.

Thank you for joining us for today’s episode of Enrichment for the Real World, and I want to thank you for rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts. The voice you heard at the beginning of today’s episode was Katie Sulzmann. Katie Sulzmann is the owner and therapist of Physio Pet Massage. She provides in-home veterinary massage, rehab exercises, and cold laser therapy. She also enjoys offering her services at several local animal shelters and bringing comfort to those there who need it most.

Her goal is to naturally help improve the health and mobility of animals. Previously, she was an instructor for Canis Bodyworks, formerly Chicago School of Canine Massage, and an animal rehab therapist at Integrative Pet Care. Before she started working with animals, she worked in sports medicine as an athletic trainer.

Katie is a licensed athletic trainer with a BS in kinesiology from Northern Illinois University. She also is a nationally certified canine massage therapist, a certified veterinary massage and rehab therapist, and fear-free certified. When she’s not spending time with animals, she enjoys running, going to concerts, and traveling with her husband.

You have probably heard me gush about Oso’s massage therapist before. Both he and I absolutely adore her, and she’s helped him so much to maintain his mobility as he enters into his twilight years. So of course, I jumped at the chance to get her on the podcast. I always learn so much from her when she’s working on Oso. Of course, I ask a million questions, and I’m really excited for her to be able to share her knowledge and expertise with you as well.

In this episode, you’re going to hear Emily and Katie talk about consent and agency in massage, the role of massage in overall wellness and enrichment, and massage for a bearded dragon. All right, here it is. Today’s episode, Katie Sulzmann: The Benefits of Massage for Your Pet.

[00:03:16] Emily: All right. So, tell us your name, your pronouns, and your pets.

[00:03:20] Katie: All right. My name is Katie Sulzmann, and my pronouns are she and her. I have three pets. My cat Elliot is 14 and she’s domestic short hair. I have a dog Scrabble and he is 11, and he’s a boxer mix, and Rufus is, he’s eight years old and he is my, he is a, um, Staffordshire Terrier Mix.

[00:03:45] Emily: Excellent. So, tell us your story and how you got to where you are.

[00:03:49] Katie: Sure. So, growing up I always had a passion for animals, but I also had a passion for like sports and exercise, so I was played sports all growing up. And so, like when I was younger, I kind of wanted to be a veterinarian, but then realized I’m way too emotional and couldn’t handle being in that kind of environment.

So, I just kind of pushed that aside. I went towards other, um, sports medicine kind of side. So, I started school, I went to Northern Illinois University, and I joined their athletic training program. Then I majored in kinesiology, so it’s a study of body movement, and after I graduated, I started working in sports medicine. I was an athletic trainer. I worked for some professional collegiate and high school sports.

And, quickly, well, I think I was doing it for about six years and got burnt out pretty fast. The athletic environment is a handful. Let’s just say that. Um, but I did love the sports, or the, the rehab aspect of it. So, thankfully, with my husband’s support, I kind of just quit cold turkey, didn’t know what I was gonna do, and one of my friends who works with a dog rescue was telling me that she’s taking her dog to physical therapy, and I’m like, “What? What’s physical? What you could take your dog to physical therapy?” And I’m like, “Okay, that’s a game changer. Going back to school.”

And I kind of did some research trying to figure out how I could do that. I found a program in Wisconsin that, at the Healing Oasis Wellness Center, and it was a veterinary massage and rehab program. So, they kind of taught us how to transition from people to animals, and we had a little bit of everyone in our class. Was kind of, there’s some veterinarians, there were some human physical therapists, and athletic trainers, then there are vet techs too. So, we kind of all just learned off of each other.

And then I did some shadowing of a physical therapy or integrative rehab clinic in the city and I was just shadowing there and I’m like, “I’m going to apply for a job here.” So, I started working there, and then kind of after a few years I found. niche of the rehab and therapeutic modalities that I liked. So, when I was working there, I worked with, or I did a lot of massage, therapeutic exercise, laser therapy, underwater treadmill, and massage stood out the most to me. I could see the fastest results. And so, I kind of went back to school again and found a canine massage program in Chicago and started doing that.

Graduated and then I took a National Board of Education exam, and then I started my own business doing canine massage and rehab therapy and where I go to people’s homes and, um, help their pets out there. So, I work with dogs and cats and currently a bearded dragon, which is pretty cool.

[00:06:40] Emily: Oh, we’re gonna have to talk about that more.

[00:06:43] Katie: I just started with him and I’m like, oh man, I need, I need to do some more research cuz this guy’s awesome.

Um, and I also was teaching canine massage with the program I went through, Canis Body Works, so I started teaching with them for a few years, and that’s where I am today.

[00:07:00] Emily: Excellent. That’s quite the journey. And it’s, it all sounds really exciting and, and interesting.

[00:07:08] Katie: It was fun. It was fun the whole way.

[00:07:10] Emily: Yeah. I love what, what we share in common is that when we were younger, we had a like passion for what we wanted to do, but only thought like, the veterinary school was the only path to kind of approximate what we were interested in, and then later in life found out like, ” Oh, actually I can do the exact thing that I wanted to do. I didn’t even know that that was a thing.”

[00:07:33] Katie: Exactly. Yeah.

[00:07:34] Emily: I can really empathize with your journey because even though we’re in parallel fields, I had that same experience.

[00:07:40] Katie: Yeah. “Why didn’t someone tell me about this sooner?”

[00:07:42] Emily: Right, right. Who knew this was a thing that you could do, like pair your passions, uh, is excellent. okay. So, you are very skilled at letting dogs tell you when they need to take a break, or when they aren’t comfortable with what you’re doing. Can you talk to us about the role of consent and providing agency in what you do?

[00:08:03] Katie: So, it kind of all starts with when I first get in contact with the pet parent, when they reach out to me. You know, I ask them any health conditions that the dog might have, I set them up so we’re kind of like aiming for success, so I’m not gonna put the, the dog in an area where they’re not comfortable.

So, I ask if they have any treats or toys that I, they like, if there’s anything that they don’t like when people come over, um, so we kind of set up the environment. And then, when I get there, I kind of just read the dog’s body language. I don’t initially just go in and start touching the dog and massage, you know, I kind of read some of their calming signals, what their body language is telling me. Do they wanna be touched right now? Do they wanna, go chew a pig’s ear?

[00:08:48] Emily: I don’t know which dog you could be referring to in that case.

[00:08:52] Katie: But like, so I’m not gonna force the massage on a dog or any of my other therapies on a pet. Like, it’s just not gonna, it’s not gonna be beneficial. It’s, they need an out, they need a choice, and so giving them the choice allows them to be more relaxed and know that they can just be comfortable.

[00:09:11] Emily: Yeah, that is, it’s such a beautiful point and an important point to make because a lot of people are so focused on like, getting the thing done. They forget that, like, that getting it done at any cost defeats the purpose of doing it, right? So, I, I love that approach, and it must be challenging when you’re going into a new client’s home, and you don’t necessarily know how those clients feel about agency and learner control and all of that, and you can see what the pet needs in terms of agency and being able to work with you on their own terms. But then like also having to balance that with the client’s expectations for like, “I’m paying you to be here, and we are, we need to get this massage done.” I can imagine that really challenging. And I think all of us who work with pets and their people can feel a similar type of pressure to give clients their money’s worth right off the bat.

But it has to be extra challenge when what you’re doing with the pet isn’t always immediately visible to the client, right? So, how do you navigate that experience? How do you help clients understand that going slower and at the pet’s pace will actually help them to get their end goal faster?

[00:10:21] Katie: Yeah, I’ll give ’em a heads up ahead of time. Usually when I’m starting the session, they are full of questions, and they wanna know, they just wanna know everything right up front. So I kind of laid out like, ” Okay, this is kind of what the massage session is gonna look like, but it doesn’t always look like what you anticipate. It’s not gonna be exactly like a human massage. When you go and get a massage yourself, you know you’re getting a massage, you are opting into it. When I’m coming to this person’s house to massage your, the dog has no idea why I’m there. So, they may react one way and not even want to be around me.” I tell the pet parent that they kind of have to expect that. Sometimes the first session is just like a meet and greet, the dog’s getting used to me. I do say that up front and I’ll feel the pressure, like, yes, I feel them watching me, like saying like, they wanna get this done, but if the dog is not comfortable, their stress hormones are gonna skyrocket which is gonna be counterintuitive to massage in the first place.

[00:11:19] Emily: Mm-hmm.Yeah. Yeah. We recently interviewed a Behaviorist whose specialty is in stress, and so we were having that conversation about how when the stress hormones go up, that it causes like a cascading kind of event. And one of the things that happens is inflammatory responses, right? So, I think that is a really good way to approach that is to explain to clients, if we push them to the point of stress, we’re actually working against our own goals. So, I love that. I love that.

[00:11:49] Katie: I’ll say, I also tell the pet parent, if there’s stuff that I can’t get done in that session, I will show them how they can do it at home. Because sometimes it’s just too stressful for me, or a new person to be there working with that dog, but you’re with the dog every day.

So, if I, I can show the pet parent some like simple, safe techniques that they can do and I’ll show the pet parent, like on their arm and be like, “This is how much pressure you’re putting. This is where you’re gonna put the pressure, and how often and how, how frequent.”

[00:12:18] Emily: Excellent. So, giving them the tools to do it on their own is also really important. Yeah, I love that. So, let’s talk about the role of massage in overall wellness and enrichment. I actually used massage a lot when I lived and worked in Texas to alleviate some of the discomfort and sort of like pent up feelings that happen with dogs who have to be confined either because of heartworm disease, or like, bilateral pelvic surgeries, or other conditions where physical exercise wasn’t really an option for prolonged periods of time.

And in Texas especially, we would get a whole lot of heartworm cases. So, this was really, really common for me working with dogs who were confined because of their heartworm treatment. So, that was really my first experience with using massage in ways that I think most people wouldn’t necessarily think about it because we were using massage to alleviate some of that discomfort from suddenly being cut off from access to physical exercise. And I saw that be really impactful. So, how else can massage meet an animal’s needs aside from what people typically think of, which is you know, joint pain or whatever, and then also like what I experienced with helping with confinement. What else have you experienced massage being useful for or helpful for?

[00:13:38] Katie: Along with like pain and discomfort, there, it can help immensely with their behavior. I will see a lot of times when there’s a dog that’s kind of getting up there in age, and they stop doing some of their normal everyday activities, and it’s just not something that the owner would really pick up on.

It just kind of gradually happens, and they just think their dog’s slowing down. Um, so sometimes when I work with an older dog, and I’m starting to do certain massage techniques, and work with them for a few times, a few weeks later, however many sessions later, it varies, I’ll get an email from the parent saying like, ” It’s insane. My dog is acting like a puppy. He’s 12 years old and I haven’t seen him play with his toys in like the last two years.” Or ” He’s jumping up on the couch and I haven’t seen that in months.” Or, you know, something like that. Or they’re able to hold a squat when they’re going to the bathroom, which they didn’t realize was an issue before, but they’re like, I haven’t seen in years, it wasn’t until I saw that did, I realize there was a problem.

[00:14:38] Emily: Right, exactly. Yeah. I think that is, such an important thing to help people to see is that a lot of times we don’t recognize when there’s like either pain or stiffness, and we just assume that it’s aging, but aging in and of itself isn’t a disease, and so it’s it, it really is impactful to say, “Look, they can be older and still have full mobility and, and be loose and, you know, all of that.” So I think that’s really empowering. And also, it has to improve the quality of life of the pet, right? Because they get to, they get to move in ways that they hadn’t moved in quite some time.

So, let’s go back to that Bearded Dragon. Tell me more about that.

[00:15:20] Katie: Yeah, so I just started working with him, I’ve only had two sessions with him. And, uh, the owner, she contacted me and was saying that he was starting, let’s see, he’s tw- 11 years old, their lifespans around 12 to 15, I believe. And he started to get a limp in his left front limb and his name is No Toes.

Like, no, toes in the back, foot. Cause he has no toes. And so, because he has no toes on the right back leg, he’s compensating with the right left front leg, and kind of dragging himself, and just moving a lot slower because there’s no grip back here.

I started working with him, I’ve never worked with a lizard before, so I kind of like read up on their calming signals, and what their stress signs are, and asked her what he does when he’s in pain.

And she said that any time now when he walks around, as soon as he starts walking around, his beard puffs up and turns black, which is a sign of stress or fear. And she said it happens every time he walks now. So, I started working with him, and I basically was just feeling around, and it’s a little dif- different cause there’s spikes, so I can’t like just do the strokey motion.

Um, so I like add a little compression, and kind of just do some circles to see if I could feel any difference in the texture of the tissue, um, if I felt any heat in certain areas, if he reacted when I touched a certain spot, and then I did some mobilization of all of his joints just to see how far he could stretch those guys.

At first, he was like pretty active, and like wanted to move around, and then like 10 minutes into the session I kind of lifted him up and his legs were just hanging there like a limp noodle. I’m like, “Oh, I love it!”

[00:17:08] Emily: You did it. Success!

[00:17:09] Katie: Yeah, so he, he started loosening up after the first session, but she contacted me a week later and was like, “Okay, he’s back to kind of where he was.” So, we, kind of went from there to see how frequent we should be doing his massage sessions.

[00:17:22] Emily: Nice. I love that. And so, just so you know, I love working with multiple species. I came from a background of working with a lot of different animals, and I think, you know, dogs understandably get the most attention, and the most resources, and the most credit. So, anytime there’s a resource for a non-dog species, I really geek out about that because I think it’s, it’s super important.

So, I, I love that you’re talking about how we can even do this with reptiles. This is not something that’s just dogs and cats. We can do this with other species. And I’m just gonna plug, maybe considering starting working with parrots too, because a lot of parrots, aren’t given the correct perches, and they don’t have access to enough activity, and so as they age they develop arthritis cuz they’re spinning their entire lives, you know, on their feet. And so, it’s a really common issue with aging parents, is arthritis in their joints. I’m open for it. Yeah, like as soon as that, as soon as that pet parent called me, I was like, “Well, I’ve never worked with ’em.” And she’s like, “Oh, I’m sorry. That’s too bad.” I’m like, “No, no, no, no. I will though.”

I will.

[00:18:32] Katie: I will. Yeah. Horses are, I, um, worked with horses a little bit in school, and I would love to start doing that too. Um, I used to ride when I was younger, so horses have definitely a spot in my heart and, but I definitely feel like I need to take more classes to work with them.

[00:18:49] Emily: Yeah. Well, there’s, there’s more resources for education with horses because again, Yeah.

So, anybody in the Chicago area who has non -dog species that might benefit from massage, Katie is your girl. What are some signs that a pet might benefit from massage that the pet parent can look out for?

[00:19:11] Katie: Okay. So, if the, if you see your pet slowing down, if they see them starting to limp, or you might not even know it’s a limp, but they might have like a little head bob, or their head’s like hanging a lot lower than it usually is. If they’re having a hard time getting up from normal activities like sitting down, or laying down on their bed, or if they’re, if you notice that, they don’t walk on certain parts of your floor anymore. Um, I had, that was a big one, and it was like a huge game changer for one of my clients, and it wasn’t even so much the massage that helped, it was changing the environment. So, the dog didn’t wanna jump off the couch anymore or even go on the couch because it was on a hardwood floor.

So, every time he would jump down, he’d slip and hurt himself. So, he just avoided it all together and wouldn’t go in certain rooms, cause they were hardwood floors. So, once they put down some carpet runners, or some yoga mats on the floor, that just immediately it was a game changer, and the dog started walking around, jumping on the couch, playing more, and it was like, that was it. So little things like that, or even like bathroom habits, behavior changes.

[00:20:18] Emily: Thank you for that. I think that’s a really important skill for people to acquire is being able to recognize when maybe there’s some pain issues going on with their pet that, that they can, help through massage or, or some other treatment.

What are our observable goals and actionable items that people can take away from this discussion?

[00:20:36] Katie: Let’s see. I guess one of the observable goals is I, one of, like, one of the things I love most about massage is you can actually see, or feel, and sometimes hear, or even smell the results.

[00:20:51] Emily: Okay. Talk more about smelling the results.

[00:20:54] Katie: I was like, thinking about it earlier. I’m like, well, I guess it could smell sometimes too. So, you can kind of observe those things with massage.

Cause I can feel, so I’m gonna start with the senses. So, you’re gonna, you can feel the texture change, you can feel the areas of heat or coolness on the body. Heat is usually more indicative of inflammation or pain, coolness is more, there’s not enough blood flow to the area.

Then you can see, so they are just holding themselves super tense and their shoulders are kind of shrugged up, and just very stiff looking. And then after the session, you can see them just start to relax, and like look all loose, goosey, and comfortable.

And the hearing, so there’s a couple dogs that I’ve worked with that are, I get pretty comfortable, they’re laying on their side, and they’ll let me work on their diaphragm. And so, which is pretty invasive, so they have to be really comfortable with me, so I’m going up under their ribs and I’m massaging their diaphragm, and all of a sudden, the diaphragm releases and you just hear them go [big sigh] take a huge breath, and like just lets everything go. And so, you could see them actually being relaxed and letting all that oxygen in.

[00:22:08] Emily: Love that.

[00:22:10] Katie: Yeah. And then the smell. So, I get gassed out of rooms a lot, because when I’m working with animals, if they’re super relaxed, their GI system is working properly, so everything is flowing, things are coming out of the mouth, things are coming out the rear end, and sometimes I have to get into a different room.

[00:22:39] Emily: That’s amazing.

[00:22:41] Katie: Yeah, it’s, it’s. not that great. I mean no, it’s, it’s awesome that they’re that relaxed, but it’s quite a smell.

[00:22:50] Emily: Who knew that your job could be so stinky?

[00:22:53] Katie: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:54] Emily: That was not an occupational hazard that I would be, have been prepared for anyway. I don’t know about you.

[00:22:59] Katie: Nope.

[00:23:03] Emily: Oh, that’s wonderful. It’s delightful.

[00:23:07] Katie: There is a resource for looking up canine massage therapists or animal massage in your area. That is a huge, basically, I think it’s just a great resource to have, and to spread the word about canine massage or animal massage, because not everyone knows about it. Most people don’t know it exists, and there could be someone in your neighborhood, neighborhood doing this, and you don’t even know.

[00:23:31] Emily: Excellent. All right, so every time we bring a guest onto the podcast, we allow our Pro Campus and Mentorship Program members to submit questions, and the most popular question is what are the benefits of massage for animals without specific ailments?

[00:23:47] Katie: Basically just kind of improves their general quality of life. It generally just feels good, and it helps relax the body, and stimulate the parasympathetic system, so that the state of rest and, uh, when you’re doing so, it allows your body to function normally. So, everything is functioning normally and it can just generally make them feel better, can help improve their mood, their behavior, and just make sure that their body is functioning properly.

[00:24:15] Emily: Yeah, I love that. So, I had a client a few years ago who was a massage therapist and we worked in trade, and I had never really had a lot of experience with massage before working in a barter system with her. And I was surprised to kind of realize how much I had kind of been compensating, or like holding my body in a certain way, just habitually that when after a massage there was like a couple hours where I felt kind of sore, and then after that I was like, ” Look at me!” Like floating around and you know, like, it was just such a weird experience. So, I, I, that was, I became a convert after that. I was like, “Okay, this, you don’t have to have any specific thing wrong to benefit from a massage.”

[00:25:03] Katie: Yeah, it just makes you feel good and like you could fly away.

[00:25:07] Emily: Yeah, exactly.

[00:25:08] Katie: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:09] Emily: So, at the end of every interview, we have a set of questions that we like to ask all of our guests. And the first one is, what is one thing that you wish people knew either about this topic, your profession, or enrichment? Your choice.

[00:25:22] Katie: Hm. I guess I wish more people knew actually about canine massage or animal massage. Most people don’t know exist, or even animal rehab. I was guilty of this too, probably 10 years ago. So, when I found this field, I was through the roof. I wish there was more awareness about this type of field and that this is an option for your animal. So, I work with other veterinary professionals and together we can kind of come up with a treatment plan for that animal, so just them knowing that this exists would be huge.

[00:25:56] Emily: Excellent. What is one thing you’d love to see improved in your field?

[00:26:00] Katie: I kind of would like there to be more standards of requirements for education to be in this field. So basically, in every state there are different guidelines of who can practice animal massage or rehab. Some states you don’t need any education whatsoever, you can be just some person off the street who’s like, “I wanna be a canine massage therapist today.” and then other states you can only be a veterinarian to do canine massage, and you don’t even need to have massage background. So, it’s very all over the place, and I would love it if there was like a standard. There’s certain education criteria that you have to meet in order to do this because it’s not something that someone can just pick up and do safely for yourself, or for that animal. Someone could get hurt, and the whole point of massage is relaxation and comfort, and to feel good and not, you don’t wanna cause more damage.

[00:27:00] Emily: I can certainly relate to that sentiment because I feel the same way about my profession.

[00:27:05] Katie: Yeah, sure. Totally.

[00:27:08] Emily: All right. What do you love about what you do?

[00:27:10] Katie: Everything. I really enjoy working with shelter animals. Yeah. It’s so, so, so, so rewarding and, I didn’t even know I would like, I thought I was gonna be too sensitive again to work in a shelter and as soon as I started doing it, I’m like, “This warms my heart.” So, I started when I was teaching canine massage we taught at Anti Cruelty Society in Chicago, and all of our students were the shelter dogs or cats, and so, we would kind of work with some of the dogs or cats, mostly dogs that were, less approachable.

And they’d be showing all kinds of calming signals, like hiding in the back of their kennel, head low, avoiding eye contact, tail tucked. And so, we’d pull those animals out of the kennel, start working with them, and listen to their behavior, and kind of see what they’re comfortable with. And if they were allowing us to massage ’em, we would, and sometimes at the end of the massage, they’re super loosey goosey, and like happy, and they just seem so much more relaxed. And then we bring ’em back in the kennel, and instead of cowering in back, they’re up in front, happy go lucky, wagging their tail, and then they’re more adoptable.

So, it’s so cool to see that. And at Anti Cruelty, the adoption rate was just so fast. I’m like, this dog’s gonna get adopted today, like it’s happening cuz he’s so happy now, and like approachable.

[00:28:37] Emily: You know, I have been involved with shelters for 32 years, and it has never occurred to me to use massage as a way of, um, helping dogs become more adoptable. So, you just blew my mind.

[00:28:52] Katie: Yay.

Well, I’m glad to help.

[00:28:55] Emily: Thank you for that because I am definitely putting that in my back pocket for, for future use and sheltering.

[00:29:03] Katie: Very cool.

[00:29:04] Emily: I super appreciate you sharing that.

[00:29:06] Katie: Mm.

[00:29:07] Emily: What are you currently working on? If people want to work more with or learn from you, where can they find you.

[00:29:13] Katie: Sure. So, I do house calls in the western suburbs of Chicago. so Physio Pet Massage. I do massage, rehab exercises, and laser light therapy. And I just travel from people’s homes and do the therapies in home so the dog, or pet is comfortable. Um, you can find me on my website www.physiopetmassage.com. I do offer pet parent classes. So, it’s just one on one with pet parents and it’s, I usually schedule about an hour and a half, and that’s exactly what I do. I’ll show the pet parent how to do basic techniques, whether it’s just laying of the hands, some effleurage, a little compression, or whatever that dog needs in that moment. There are some acupressure points that are really easy to, um, show them how to do at home.

And then another resource is, um, the schooling where I came from, uh, Canis Body Works, and they are now offering online classes. Most of their classes are weekend courses, so you always have to start at the intro class and that one, they’re gonna show you animal behavior, and what to look out for while you’re massaging in the basic techniques.

[00:30:28] Emily: That is excellent. Excellent. Okay, well that’s all I have for you today. So, thank you so much for joining me and, uh, having this conversation. I really appreciate you, not only coming here today, but also just what you do. I appreciate you so much. Thank you for bringing your expertise and kindness to the pet community.

[00:30:48] Katie: Thank you for having me.

[00:30:50] Allie: What did I tell you about learning so much from Katie? And you best believe that I ask her about no toes every time she comes over to Massage Oso now that I’ve heard that story. And speaking of Oso, a behind the scenes note is that we had Katie come over, and use my recording equipment for this episode, and also had a real hard time believing that she was here to record, and not to pay attention to him, and he had real big feels about that. She’s honestly one of his favorite people, like right behind grandma.

Next week we’ll be talking about building connection through touch.

Thank you for listening. You can find us at petharmonytraining.com and @petharmonytraining on Facebook and Instagram, and also @petharmonypro on Instagram for those of you who are behavioral professionals. As always links to everything we discussed in this episode are in the show notes and a reminder to please rate, review and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts a special thank you to Ellen Yoakum for editing this episode, our intro music is from Penguin Music on Pixabay.

Thank you for listening and happy training.

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